JC Political Thread - For All Things Political Part 2

[c2105026]

Who said anything about doctors and nurses being unemployed?

Both professions are desperately understaffed in many regional areas. Incentives to get them to move away from the more populous areas into regions might well be worthwhile.

Next time you feel like a chuckle, stop and think first.

Seeing that unemployment scheme was being discussed I thought you were referring to that.

Anyway.....

ALP was trialling a welfare basics card whereby you could only spend in certain shops on certain things. Not sure what has come of it. Nonetheless one could argue that such a move infringes on personal liberty. The libertarians on here would theoretically be up in arms about this. However, I suspect this is not the case. I wonder why.....

 

[vr94ss]

Seeing that unemployment scheme was being discussed I thought you were referring to that.

Anyway.....

ALP was trialling a welfare basics card whereby you could only spend in certain shops on certain things. Not sure what has come of it. Nonetheless one could argue that such a move infringes on personal liberty. The libertarians on here would theoretically be up in arms about this. However, I suspect this is not the case. I wonder why.....

Sounds like a great way for govt to decide which corporations get the money unless it is usable everywhere. That's pretty much the problem with the "intervention" cards. You can't buy where you want but only where govco tells you you can. To bad for the small businesses. It's a stupid idea really to treat adults as children then expect them to act like adults. Most adults are perfectly capable of deciding where to buy. Sounds like another punish the many for the few plan that Au loves to implement. nanny.gov.au.

 

[Reaper]

ALP was trialling a welfare basics card whereby you could only spend in certain shops on certain things. Not sure what has come of it. Nonetheless one could argue that such a move infringes on personal liberty. The libertarians on here would theoretically be up in arms about this. However, I suspect this is not the case. I wonder why.....

Never heard anything about it however I like the idea to apply to unemployment recipients. As for the libertarians - meh. The easy answer is for those with one to get a job . It'd cut out the job snobs and the like quick smart.

 

[c2105026]

Info about it on govt human services page.

I find it astounding that there are those ( like reaper) who promote small govt and maximum personal freedom, of course until the issue no longer applies to them. At which point, govt is free to be as draconian as possible.

 

[Jesterarts]

Sounds like a great way for govt to decide which corporations get the money unless it is usable everywhere. That's pretty much the problem with the "intervention" cards. You can't buy where you want but only where govco tells you you can. To bad for the small businesses. It's a stupid idea really to treat adults as children then expect them to act like adults. Most adults are perfectly capable of deciding where to buy. Sounds like another punish the many for the few plan that Au loves to implement. nanny.gov.au.

Two things come to mind in response to the above.

While I agree that this may inconvenience those who do not abuse the system, it would only be a "short term" inconvenience until they re-entered the workforce and didn't need welfare.

"You don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You take it and stfu."

I know the ending to that saying isn't strictly as the original, but it expresses the sentiment nicely.

And those who are on welfare abusing the system are acting like children do they can be treated accordingly.

Your comment about the a scheme like a card that only works at certain businesses being "too bad for small business" is baseless. Unless you classify Jim Beam, Philip Morris USA INC and Panasonic "small business". Then yes, I am sure it will be too bad for them, but they will survive.

Finally, I just want to point out a bit of hypocrisy from you.

In your post, you have made it clear that you don't like the idea of schemes where everyone is punished because of a few who spoil it for the rest of us.

In you example, I understand you were referring to some people on welfare abusing the system and the result being measures who take away everyone's rights.

So how come you are so comfortable with money being taken from the majority of people and given to a minority who, in most cases, chose not to work?

Why does this minority of people have more right to my hard earned cash than I do?

That seems to be a but of punishing the majority because of the minority?

I know there are shades of grey in all this, but you seem to be very hard line in your philosophy, so long as the benefactor is anyone but those who are well off, or work for what they have, or generally those who keep this whole happy little system afloat.

If tomorrow, for whatever reason everyone who pays tax was allowed to instead take their money that would have gone towards welfare payments and instead buy a slab of beer, there would be an outcry from people such as yourself. So that will never happen and I won't get that slab of beer.

But on the other hand, if there was a system introduced were all those who receive that money were not allowed to buy a slab of beer, there would be an outcry from people such as yourself and c2105026 would say it's treating adults like children and infringes on people's liberties.

That hardly seems right fair to me.

 

[c2105026]

Info about it on govt human services page.

I dare say your view of welfare would be different if you were on it.....

Hypocrisy goes the other way. Those on the right (from the posts here) seem to want maximum personal liberty and minimal govt interference. Fair enough. But in regards to social groups they are not part of, govt is free to be as draconian and badass as it desires.

 

[Jesterarts]

Freedom and liberties are earned in my view.

Thus why I feel that those who are yet to earn their liberties, or freedoms, should appreciate their free meal rather than demand more or complain about not being allowed to afford certain liberties such as "smoking".

For example, I quite enjoy a catch up with the lads to p[lay some poker, watch some movies and smoke a nice cigar. However, I don't do this often as cigars are expensive and I just can't afford to do it more often.

So if I cannot afford to indulge in a smoke, why should someone who deceivers government handouts be able too. If these people are not able to get a job, shouldn't they be channeling all that "spare" cash that is spend on non-essentials into upskilling? Professional services to put together a better resume? Tools? Starting their own business?

It's not that difficult to start a business doing something that is a choir for others.

If I had someone rock up at my door tomorrow and say "Hey, I'm down on my luck with getting a job so for the time I am looking locally for opportunities to perform handyman tasks" I would let that individual do my laws, pay them in cash and if they did it on a weekend, shout them a couple coffees and a beer.

I've used this example before, when we first came to Australia by dad was a fully qualified engineer with multiple degree's. His first few jobs were a petrol station attendant, a 2nd car sales man and a short stint as a "balloon" specialist.

And the comment about it being easy to comment from "an ivory tower" is a cop out. I'm not suggesting welfare is a picnic or its easy. I'm suggesting that spending money that is provided for essentials shouldn't be allowed to be spend on non-essentials.

And just to be clear, essentials do involve leisure. For a family with kids, going to the movies once a month or so is an essentially. Buying grog and smokes is not nor is buying a 42" LCD TV.

 

[Reaper]

Info about it on govt human services page.

I find it astounding that there are those ( like reaper) who promote small govt and maximum personal freedom, of course until the issue no longer applies to them. At which point, govt is free to be as draconian as possible.

The dole should not be a viable long term alternative to funding one's life. I entirely and un-ashamedly promote personal freedom to a point. That point is roughly constrained by our laws although some of which I think should be changed (everybodies opinion of where that line is will be different). I also think that people should be encouraged to support themselves wherever possible. The notion that an able bodied person otherwise able to support themselves be supported by welfare for anything more than a short period if they find themselves unemployed makes no sense what so ever to me. Note that I am only talking about unemployment benefits here.

I'm not sure what you are trying to infer regarding the small government comment.

 

[c2105026]

However a big issue with welfare dependency is that it is often inter generational. A child growing up in a household where both the grandparents and the parents always got the dole - not looking good for them. Some do get out of the cycle via an epiphany, a lucky encounter with a chance mentor etc but most in this situation don't.

Simple ideas like coupons, telling people what you can and can't spend money on will only aggravate and frustrate some people affected. For some people the concept of 'work' is an utterly foreign concept. This particular issue is unsolvable within the 3 year electoral cycle.

I still maintain that if people had to live on the dole, their perspective of the issue would change.

 

[Reaper]

However a big issue with welfare dependency is that it is often inter generational. A child growing up in a household where both the grandparents and the parents always got the dole - not looking good for them. Some do get out of the cycle via an epiphany, a lucky encounter with a chance mentor etc but most in this situation don't.

The sooner people realise that the dole as a way of life is not going to be

Simple ideas like coupons, telling people what you can and can't spend money on will only aggravate and frustrate some people affected. For some people the concept of 'work' is an utterly foreign concept. This particular issue is unsolvable within the 3 year electoral cycle.[/QUOTE]

Yeah they'll be aggravated because the gravy train is at the end of the line. Stiff **** - go get a job. The sense of entitlement in this country only defies belief more by the bleeding hearts who pander to them.