Rear Brake upgrade to 2014 SSV Redline Series 1

[Forg]

Racing is a different application to driving in the outback or a regional area........... it is not like a mob of emus are going to come out of nowhere and run across the road ( that happened to me out near Broken Hill).......... or you go around a blind corner and there is a steer standing in the middle of the road.

These are exactly the sorts of scenarios where rear Brembos will offer zero benefit.
It’s only repeated application where you might get a benefit; like on a race track, or pushing harder than most would consider safe on a 10km stretch of downhill windy country road.

 

[3rspecB]

The bigger rear brake setup has allowed ABS/EBD callobration to use more rear brake to help pull the car up in low speed daily type driving situations. High speed stops, brake bias/distribution moves to the front like Revnev has pointed out.

360mm vs stock ss 324mm rear rotor.

So the question then needs to be, if one does the bigger rear brake setup, does the ABS modulator need to be updated using a VF2 redline vin to utilise the different abs/ebd callobration.

Luckily I might know I person who can answer

 

[keith reed]

I think the best thing to do with this thread is put it on hold and wait for OP to have them fitted. He will be able to tell us if he thinks it has been worthwhile. No science required just seat of the pants assessment.

 

[RevNev]

And.......... where does the different engineered design / fixed v floating calliper fit into your opinion?

Floating calipers resist pad knock off better than fixed calipers from rotor flex, hub and axle bearing clearance/play, but lack area for the clamping force that a fixed caliper can potentially generate. Floating calipers are ideal on the rear as they need only apply 20% of the front brake capabilities.

No it isn't...... that is only an opinion of you and others on a forum........... and the foundations of your credibility is what?

Motor mechanic (46 years' experience) with certificate in Automotive Engineering, (the latter provides expert witness status in court hearings). Motorsport engineering production-based vehicles in circuit racing and 3rd tier V8 Supercars. Chief engineer of 3 Australian championship winning Holdens and multiple state championships in SA, WA and VIC. Current lap record holder in production based Holdens at Mallala, The Bend, Sandown, Bathurst, Wanneroo Raceway, Eastern Creek and Symmons Plains (TAS). The motorsport achievements extremely unlikely without sufficient knowledge of how braking systems optimally function.

FYI...... I am not a car person

That's obvious so alternatively, you could listen to the multitude of forum members with technical experience and expertise in a wide range of areas from polishing cars to making horsepower, tuning and everything in between who post to help you instead of arguing with them!

 

[keith reed]

Floating calipers resist pad knock off better than fixed calipers from rotor flex, hub and axle bearing clearance/play, but lack area for the clamping force that a fixed caliper can potentially generate. Floating calipers are ideal on the rear as they need only apply 20% of the front brake capabilities.


Motor mechanic (46 years' experience) with certificate in Automotive Engineering, (the latter provides expert witness status in court hearings). Motorsport engineering production-based vehicles in circuit racing and 3rd tier V8 Supercars. Chief engineer of 3 Australian championship winning Holdens and multiple state championships in SA, WA and VIC. Current lap record holder in production based Holdens at Mallala, The Bend, Sandown, Bathurst, Wanneroo Raceway, Eastern Creek and Symmons Plains (TAS). The motorsport achievements extremely unlikely without sufficient knowledge of how braking systems optimally function.


That's obvious so alternatively, you could listen to the multitude of forum members with technical experience and expertise in a wide range of areas from polishing cars to making horsepower, tuning and everything in between who post to help you instead of arguing with them!

Certainly an impressive portffolio. What car do you drive, what brakes do you use, are there any restrictions on brakes and have you ever brake tested cars with regard to the subject we are talking about?

 

[Redline457]

Floating calipers resist pad knock off better than fixed calipers from rotor flex, hub and axle bearing clearance/play, but lack area for the clamping force that a fixed caliper can potentially generate. Floating calipers are ideal on the rear as they need only apply 20% of the front brake capabilities.


Motor mechanic (46 years' experience) with certificate in Automotive Engineering, (the latter provides expert witness status in court hearings). Motorsport engineering production-based vehicles in circuit racing and 3rd tier V8 Supercars. Chief engineer of 3 Australian championship winning Holdens and multiple state championships in SA, WA and VIC. Current lap record holder in production based Holdens at Mallala, The Bend, Sandown, Bathurst, Wanneroo Raceway, Eastern Creek and Symmons Plains (TAS). The motorsport achievements extremely unlikely without sufficient knowledge of how braking systems optimally function.


That's obvious so alternatively, you could listen to the multitude of forum members with technical experience and expertise in a wide range of areas from polishing cars to making horsepower, tuning and everything in between who post to help you instead of arguing with them!

Court adjourned i reckon re the automotive and completion qualifications

 

[RevNev]

Certainly an impressive portffolio. What car do you drive, what brakes do you use, are there any restrictions on brakes and have you ever brake tested cars with regard to the subject we are talking about?

The last car I raced was a VS Improved Production Commodore in 2004. It had a 640hp 358ci Holden V8 with alloy heads and Perkins slide manifold, Holinger gearbox. Brake wise, the VS had a full Harrop setup with twin master cylinders and balance bar (V8 Supercar type) with 6 spot front calipers and 4 spot rear. In hindsight, I retired from racing too early to focus on purely engineering race cars for our team and others.

Brakes depend on category rules and freedoms but as an example with a 6-cylinder Holden vs Ford category open to VT to VZ Commodore's restricted to 330mm front rotors and SV5000 C4 twin piston calipers retaining the stock type master cylinders and brake booster, we run a semi floating rotor and hat on the front with a carbon metallic race pad. The master cylinder is a VU ute without the rear brake proportioning valve with a driver adjustable brake bias valve in the rear brake line. Rear brakes are stock VT rotors and calipers with Bendix Metal King Road car pads to limit rear bite and unsettle the car on hard braking. The brake bias valve to prevent rear wheel lock up as the car slows down, is almost screwed right off to reduce rear brake line pressure to 30% of the front pressure. Consequently, rear pads last 3 times as long as the front pads before replacement.

It's astounding how little rear brake is useable on hard braking to prevent rear wheel lock up, it's far less than most would expect. We've run production VE and VF race cars with ABS disconnected often required by regulations and with production (Redline) Brembo's and HSV AP's, they lock rear wheels fiercely, almost undrivable without a bias valve in the rear brake line to reduce pressure. With ABS they're ok with big rear brakes as the ABS unit reduces line pressure when a brake lock up is detected. Having said that, they can skip a bit in the rear and unsettle the car as the ABS kicks in when the car is braked hard on the limit of front tyre adhesion.

 

[keith reed]

The last car I raced was a VS Improved Production Commodore in 2004. It had a 640hp 358ci Holden V8 with alloy heads and Perkins slide manifold, Holinger gearbox. Brake wise, the VS had a full Harrop setup with twin master cylinders and balance bar (V8 Supercar type) with 6 spot front calipers and 4 spot rear. In hindsight, I retired from racing too early to focus on purely engineering race cars for our team and others.

Brakes depend on category rules and freedoms but as an example with a 6-cylinder Holden vs Ford category open to VT to VZ Commodore's restricted to 330mm front rotors and SV5000 C4 twin piston calipers retaining the stock type master cylinders and brake booster, we run a semi floating rotor and hat on the front with a carbon metallic race pad. The master cylinder is a VU ute without the rear brake proportioning valve with a driver adjustable brake bias valve in the rear brake line. Rear brakes are stock VT rotors and calipers with Bendix Metal King Road car pads to limit rear bite and unsettle the car on hard braking. The brake bias valve to prevent rear wheel lock up as the car slows down, is almost screwed right off to reduce rear brake line pressure to 30% of the front pressure. Consequently, rear pads last 3 times as long as the front pads before replacement.

It's astounding how little rear brake is useable on hard braking to prevent rear wheel lock up, it's far less than most would expect. We've run production VE and VF race cars with ABS disconnected often required by regulations and with production (Redline) Brembo's and HSV AP's, they lock rear wheels fiercely, almost undrivable without a bias valve in the rear brake line to reduce pressure. With ABS they're ok with big rear brakes as the ABS unit reduces line pressure when a brake lock up is detected. Having said that, they can skip a bit in the rear and unsettle the car as the ABS kicks in when the car is braked hard on the limit of front tyre adhesion.

Thanks for your reply. There is a wealth of imformation on 0-100 times on any modern car but virtually nothing on 100-0. The only info I was able to find was the 2006 HSV that stopped in 36 metres, the ve v6 in over 39 meters, the series 1 redline in over 38 metres and the series 11 redline in the 37's. How much that was to do with the pads they use or test conditions is anyones guess. Plenty of info on the Dodge Viper and Corvette and the like, they both stopped in 27 meters.

If I have a choice between more power or more braking the braking will always come first. As will any handling mods. As I have mentioned previously I put 4 pot calipers on a vt, ve and the ones off the vt when sold onto the vh. Just need more research or help on putting ABS on the vh. The engine in the vh is a vp v8 so perhaps that is a bit of a help.

 

[jianakn]

Floating calipers resist pad knock off better than fixed calipers from rotor flex, hub and axle bearing clearance/play, but lack area for the clamping force that a fixed caliper can potentially generate. Floating calipers are ideal on the rear as they need only apply 20% of the front brake capabilities.


Motor mechanic (46 years' experience) with certificate in Automotive Engineering, (the latter provides expert witness status in court hearings). Motorsport engineering production-based vehicles in circuit racing and 3rd tier V8 Supercars. Chief engineer of 3 Australian championship winning Holdens and multiple state championships in SA, WA and VIC. Current lap record holder in production based Holdens at Mallala, The Bend, Sandown, Bathurst, Wanneroo Raceway, Eastern Creek and Symmons Plains (TAS). The motorsport achievements extremely unlikely without sufficient knowledge of how braking systems optimally function.


That's obvious so alternatively, you could listen to the multitude of forum members with technical experience and expertise in a wide range of areas from polishing cars to making horsepower, tuning and everything in between who post to help you instead of arguing with them!

Respectfully,

On my computer screen the only thing I knew about you is that you're just another swinging dick who owns a Holden.

This is telling you straight

a) Have a good look at the screenshot of what I see about you........... I don't know if you are 21 or 61, or anything about you, other than you were able to buy a $50,000 + motor vehicle..........

b) I don't know you, or any of your 'friends', with 'technical experience and expertise', from Adam.........

OR

c) If what you post is based on genuine experience or being parroted.

AND

d) I sure as hell don't grasp why I should 'unquestionably' take 'anonymous advice' from people on a forum........... without sorting out who's who in the zoo.

Do you 'unquestionably' take 'anonymous advice' from whoever posts on a forum? ......... Neither do I........

Impressive as your record is....... me being someone who hasn't watched more than an hour of Bathurst since 1982............ none of that would have influenced my decision to buy or not buy........

Regardless, the rear set get fitted tomorrow.............. before the engine gets upgraded.

Thanks for your input..........

 

[RevNev]

Thanks for your reply. There is a wealth of imformation on 0-100 times on any modern car but virtually nothing on 100-0. The only info I was able to find was the 2006 HSV that stopped in 36 metres, the ve v6 in over 39 meters, the series 1 redline in over 38 metres and the series 11 redline in the 37's. How much that was to do with the pads they use or test conditions is anyones guess. Plenty of info on the Dodge Viper and Corvette and the like, they both stopped in 27 meters.

If I have a choice between more power or more braking the braking will always come first. As will any handling mods. As I have mentioned previously I put 4 pot calipers on a vt, ve and the ones off the vt when sold onto the vh. Just need more research or help on putting ABS on the vh. The engine in the vh is a vp v8 so perhaps that is a bit of a help.

Basically, if the ABS is activating at a particular speed, the car has already reached the limit of tyre adhesion and bigger brakes won't stop the car in a shorter distance. Whilst stock brakes may activate ABS at 100kmph, it likely won't at 160kmph where bigger brakes will and consequently, bigger brakes will stop the car in a shorter distance at higher speeds. On a racetrack where you're continually braking hard, the heat generated from smaller brakes working harder will boil brake fluid faster and cause heat related pad fade in a lesser number of laps. When the brakes are on the cusp in size, the car brakes well for 5 laps and as the race or track session progresses, the brakes progressively go off until you're brake earlier and slowing up your lap times.

In a road car at urban speeds, bigger brakes generally have a better feel and will stop the car with less pedal pressure in most cases.

d) I sure as hell don't grasp why I should 'unquestionably' take 'anonymous advice' from people on a forum........... without sorting out who's who in the zoo.

Do you 'unquestionably' take 'anonymous advice' from whoever posts on a forum? ......... Neither do I........

Not being a "car person" meaning that you couldn't decipher credible information from the uncredible anyway, it's understandable to question something opposite to your unqualified perception. Personally, I have enough experience to determine who's advice is credible and who's isn't and in fact, there's plenty of smart people who post regularly with extremely credible advice willing to help others if you're openminded enough to actually listen and learn something.