Welcome to Just Commodores, a site specifically designed for all people who share the same passion as yourself.

New Posts Contact us

Just Commodores Forum Community

It takes just a moment to join our fantastic community

Register

Truth about the MAFless tune.

PIR4TE

Banned
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
2,747
Reaction score
74
Points
0
Location
AWOL with Ari
Members Ride
Black Pearl
Air mass calculations are more accurate at higher revs in the MAF model, and in a blend tune you still need to cater for the SD model - so unless your tuner can tune the SD model to be reporting the same airflow as the MAF (problematic to get right needs the dyno as every setup is different). Unfortunately in most budget tune cases one or the other is used.
When tuning to account for performance mods you are altering what the MAF is actually measuring, and here's the rub: The stock MAF on a VE 6.0 becomes unreliable for air mass modeling at around 300g/s (280rwkw), at which point it requires frequency scaling to suit the actual airflow bias. This skilled hack is fine and simple to do, up to the point where the MAF and housing itself becomes a physical restriction to the CFM required to increase engine kw, operating outside design parameters when the honey cells become restrictive, laminar flow gives way to turbulent RE, and technically the sender lacks the resolution (15khz) required for fine tuning drivability which the MAF on GM's larger engines have as stock.
To circumvent needless time and expense performance tuners typically disregard the MAF model to avoid these obstacles.
The car will run as expected, and in fact run better at part throttle having at least the MAF model tuned out, than when the Stock SD settings are estimating airflow to be a different value than the MAF reading values are reporting, which would translate in poor throttle response.
The MAFless difference is not that SD airflow modeling is more basic or that you are losing some crucial technological element to your car, just that for most it is easier and often cheaper to get better results in less time above 280rwkw tuning the airflow using SD and wideband rather than also scaling the air mass reading in a blend tune.
Lately tuners are using MAF only modeling to some success with 100mm+ housing and card style MAF from either an LS3 or an LS7, customizing their own air straighteners and plumbing pre-throttle body.
So yes, in 2013 swapping a known cam, headers and OTR will get good cheap results by retaining and scaling the stock MAF on a dyno (and possibly remain street legal?). However in a comparison between the two tuning models on a motor approaching 300rwkw, less tuners offer MAF only on the VE 6.0 for reasons above, making it problematic to source a skilled tuner, which means more expensive with less predictable results.
 
Last edited:

nes138

Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
555
Reaction score
2
Points
18
Location
Gippsland Victoria
Members Ride
FC HOLDEN with 5LT V8 (VT)
Wow really good guts info here guys and an interesting read.
What's the go with the VT 5L 304 V8 then? I know Nutcracker has it (and only one I know of) and I wouldn't mind deleting it to get some room in my FC engine bay. So how does the sequential V8 go on MAP only?

Sorry to hijack thread...
 

toey@carfx

Detailing Junkie
Joined
Nov 18, 2010
Messages
549
Reaction score
6
Points
18
Location
cobar
Website
www.facebook.com
Members Ride
2007 wm caprice
I don't know what the traditional tuning of the old 5L. I do know that castle hill exhausts developed a setup where they could use a computer from a ls series motor to run the 5L and therefore use efi live or hp tuners to do the mapping. from what I could gather, doing this allowed for a much nice tune than the traditional methods.

to the o.p. it could be an option to use a maf from a late model commodore and adapt it to your setup if you do want to retain a maf. the vt to vy maf's are a restriction even on a bolt on car, the vz maf is fine for a bolt on but becomes restrictive for a cam. the ve onwards maf's are fine to use on mildish sized cams.
 

ConstantVelocity

New Member
Joined
May 14, 2013
Messages
378
Reaction score
6
Points
0
Location
ACT
Members Ride
VTII SS M6
I like the VZ 85mm mafs for stockish motors. The earlier 75mm ones are restrictive even on a stocker to the tune of ~10kw, but a maf tune will still give gains over a crappy stock holden tune.

It's worth noting that SD tunes drift much more than maf tunes in the face of temp swings and heatsoak. In theory SD shouldn't drift, but in practice it does because GM's intake air temp sensors suck, and their IAT/ECT bias models aren't very well tuned. In closed loop mode the fuel trims cover it up and it works well enough, but it's not ideal.

People will say "mafless gives moooar throttle response!!!111!" but IMO that's mostly just L$1.com.au BS. I can't notice any difference running SD or MAF with the same spark tables, and MAFs actually respond faster to transients than MAP. Most of the increase in throttle response comes from optimising spark tables, especially on the older ones with crap stock tunes.

That being said on a VT-VY I'd probably go mafless if you don't want to hunt around for an 85mm maf and the adaptor to make it work. It's also easier to fit an OTR without the maf. On a VZ+ keep the maf if you're not planning wild mods and don't want an OTR. If you do get an OTR get a good one. Some of the cheap ones "secure" the filter by screwing into its rubber surround :bang: They're all a bit suspect with regard to filter sealing IMO... but the power gains are there.
 

NU13

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
1,581
Reaction score
42
Points
48
Age
50
Location
New Zealand
Members Ride
2007 E1 HSV GTS Manual
I thinking of keeping the big mouth intake system i have and going for a OTR at a later date. Would that require another tune? At the moment i'm not entirely sure what to do with the section of pipe that houses the MAF when i go MAFless. Do i leave the MAF in place but unplug it? Gut the insides out of the MAF pipe? Try and find a replacement section of pipe where the MAF was?
Suggestions gentlemen?
 

07GTS

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Messages
5,002
Reaction score
6,674
Points
113
Location
Australia
Members Ride
VEGTS BUILT BLOWN E85
I thinking of keeping the big mouth intake system i have and going for a OTR at a later date. Would that require another tune? At the moment i'm not entirely sure what to do with the section of pipe that houses the MAF when i go MAFless. Do i leave the MAF in place but unplug it? Gut the insides out of the MAF pipe? Try and find a replacement section of pipe where the MAF was?
Suggestions gentlemen?
find a section of pipe to replace it, keep ur maf incase u need it again one day, yes changing the intake when mafless will require a touch up tune, remember when u go mafless u will have to plum in a intake air temp sensor into the intake somewhere if there isnt already a spot for it...
 

NU13

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
1,581
Reaction score
42
Points
48
Age
50
Location
New Zealand
Members Ride
2007 E1 HSV GTS Manual
find a section of pipe to replace it, keep ur maf incase u need it again one day, yes changing the intake when mafless will require a touch up tune, remember when u go mafless u will have to plum in a intake air temp sensor into the intake somewhere if there isnt already a spot for it...

I think you're right. I should keep the MAF if for no other reason than it's in good working order and when/if i sell it the new owner will appreciate having the MAF.

Can anyone tell me what size that MAF pipe is?
 

conp

New Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
46
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Location
Australia
Members Ride
VYSV8
I've recently began modding my newly acquired VYSV8 and to date with full exhaust mods and stock airbox, I have had the tune tweaked with MAF intact and it goes fine. It posted 213 rwkw and drives really well. The improvements over stock and untuned were phenomenal. However now with a thirst for wanting a little more I'm looking at camming the car and retaining the MAF and possibly staying with a pod type cai over an OTR for street legality and stealthiness. Is this possible or is going mafless and OTR mandatory at the next level ? I hope I'm not hijacking the thread, just haven't found any examples and very interested to know....:idea3:
 
Top