Are the (MSE/Director) & Magnum the best factory standard performance sedans/utes ever made?

[panhead]

For all ze pompous wank about AMG, the tune house for Daimler, and the Motorsport Division of BMW, Audi and Porsche (VAG) and it’s piss poor effort to produce a decent NA V8 [too pathetic to even rate] our LS3 in its last full tune iteration from Holden’s tune house was the most powerful, king of the heap at 340 kW (456 HP). And let me tell you that is not tuned within an inch of its life such that it requires extensive expensive life support within 100,000 km or destined to depreciate and die a slow death in some old codger’s garage, like ze ‘elite’ Germans.
Good luck getting more power out of a W156 as Sonny from Autowerks has tried with a passion. Whereas for three to five grand our V8 with FBO and a tune will get 385+ kW (517 HP).
Don’t let the expensive landed price of the foreign made Euro wank get in the way the facts, our lightweight high powered little V8 sleeved into our locally made Zeta is a world beater. Even the last run detuned and beaten into emission submission:
View media item 487We already know that, the main point is a pity the KOM didnt go full paleo lose weight and gain some muscles instead.
Easy fixed, rip the guts out Barry!
Forget the gadgets get rid of the fat cat crap, spend $5-$10k for sensible driveline race prep to match the livery.
I mean honestly, RPO is KOM, should be a kick arse tribute much more minimalist aggressive production series stylee...

I know you’re not a German fan and fair enough I’m not about converting people but you are good with bamboozling with figures while being equally as good at ignoring anything that doesn’t fit your agenda and I usually read your posts and leave it to others to sort out the real truths if they are interested but this subject does interest me and the fact you say the M156 is tuned to within an inch of it's life and needs major life support after 100,000k's isn’t entirely accurate and there are now plenty of these cars with high mileage getting around the planet without problems to prove that incorrect.

The M156 came in a range of outputs fitted with components of increasing strength depending on what vehicle it was fitted to.

C63 - 451hp (336kW) 600Nm & 500hp (373kW) 630Nm

CLK63 – 475hp (354kW) 630Nm

E63 – 507hp (378kW) 630Nm & 528hp (386kW) 630Nm

If the owners want a bit more power but don’t want to go for a custom tune or mods for their N/A C63 they only have to ask a dealer or aftermarket tuner to install the OEM AMG E63 tune.

If they want to give their cars a bit more pep they can go the common exhaust, CAI and tune route like the LS crowd or spend the extra and add a blower.

Other than the locals who in-house tune Germans there are well known tuning houses who ply their trade internationally including Weistec, Kleeman, Brabus and Renntech.

VCM Australia offer Magnuson (Eaton 2300) Supercharges for the N/A C63 fitted and tuned for $15,000AUD.

And so members can get an idea of what it costs to upgrade an AMG and the same is available for all the German brands then the following is a rounded up price list in US Dollars of just some of the parts supplied internationally by Westec and these type of mods are available through many of their aftermarket competitors as well.

They may or may not be more expensive than LS performance upgrade parts but the enthusiast’s modding their Germans probably don’t care.

Blower 673hp (501kW) - $10,000

Blower 740hp (550kW) - $15,000

Forged pistons and rods - $5,500

Ported heads - $4,900

ECU Upgrade - $900

Cold Air Intake Upgrade - $550

3” Exhaust including tuned headers - $4,500

Wavetrac LSD - $1,600

Carbon Fibre Drive Shaft - $3,000

Set of 1000hp Axles - $2,000

Clutch packs and all the necessaries for a track and competition ready transmission - $4,000

Oil/Air separator complete system (Catch Can + all auxiliaries) - $600


The LS engines may have more to play with tune wise but the M156 definitely isn’t rung out to within an inch of its life and you only have to frequent the AMG forums to know they don’t fail in numbers any more than any other manufacturer and I can say this for sure, when an AMG fails their owners aren’t backwards in letting the world know about it.

Even the class action and carry on about the head bolt failures on the early M156 that Mercedes denied ended up fizzling out and the court action was eventually dropped due to not enough owners responding.

In my case the dealer quietly replaced the bolts while the car was in for service and the only reason the service manager told me was because he knew I was a car nut and I was one of those strange MB owners that would open the bonnet.

One thing about the Germans is they try to offer their owners excitement out of the box where GM give you a soft tune and force you to voiding your driveline warranty if you want to play harder.

And those old Holdens may someday be worth something in Australia but the old Germans "destined to depreciate and die a slow death in some old codger’s garage" will most likely have a world wide collectors appeal.

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[Mike Litherous]

Bit of German loving going on.

Performance cars of all makes and countries of origin should be celebrated and their relative affordability.

Geez back in my day when I got my licence the big ticket performance car offering was then group a Vk commodore which cost about 45k the same as a flat or apartment in Melbourne. Any euro equiverlant m535i or v8 Merc was well into the 6 figure mark.

 

[woooo]

I think theres alot of hype over the LS3 engine, in stock form its pretty piss poor considering the displacement (408hp or 65hp/Litre). Yes it can be made into a beast (most engines can) but would've been nice to have a bit more character in stock form.

With slicks and a hi stall you would expect a decent 60 foot, cant argue with that.. can't really compare a fully rebuilt L77 to a stock car off the show room floor (even though he likes to)

Fords gen3 5.0L coyote is making good numbers in stock NA form (460hp or 92hp/Litre) shame they put it in a crap chassis. And then theres Chryslers 300 SRT with a 6.4L hemi which is probably the closest car to compare with the commodore in terms of size and old school NA V8.

Happy with the vf2's chassis just not that impressed with its boring stock power.. something im slowly sorting out.

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Gģg

Teddy Bears corner in my Redline: windows down, sunroof open, blip downshift 2, rev, crackle, pop. Raucous V8 cacophony. Gun it, oversteer, correct, up shift to second, hairpin left 25k sign, approaching hard and fast, redline in 2nd, up into 3rd, blip downshift, hard on the brakes, blip downshift, hook left throttle controlled oversteer. Car approaching, low beem, no marsupials, phew, slow down.
Same road. Towing the 5.5m boat, dual axle trailer. Heavy. Overtaking slower cars with ease. Faultless brakes. No fade. Within the rules. No sweat.
Love it. Can't magine having such fun in a quick little go cart. Quicker, on that road? Maybe. Probably. I really wouldn't now. But, if you can have more fun than that, when the roads are clear (night or mid Winter lol), with your pants on, then I need a new sex life. It's like, would I prefer a lap of Bathurst, with Brock in his VP, DJ in his Sierra or Skaife in his R32? Brock in the V8 for me, no question. But, each to their own.

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[426Cuda]

This thread started off asking for opinions on whether the stock LE Commodores match the other stock marque brands on performance and the thread boundaries have changed or morphed into good towing ability, easy to mod, exhaust sound, after sales service, hot hatches and so on and on

Since the death of the Falcon there hasn’t been a 4 door performance vehicle to compare the Commodore with in a ‘bang for buck’ comparison other than the for want of a word the ‘unfashionable’ 300C.

I know it’s a Commodore site and I get that the bulk of views will side with that model but for those who have spent time in or owned some of the marque brands and aren’t just conned by what someone else who hasn’t owned one has to say will know there is a lot more engineering in them than meets the eye and it is the engineering and the tech in these brands that eventually filters down to the cheaper models like the Commodore.

Pull some of these performance Germans apart next to a Commodore or Falcon and you’ll see why they cost more, I won’t say that the high price is actually justified for what you get but unfortunately here in Australia we pay a premium on such cars and if you want to own them then you have to pay.

The marque cars still go on while the V8 locals haven’t survived, it a real shame but it also says where the market has shifted with big N/A on the way out and smaller F/A the new king.

Ford made some stonking engines for their cars and dropped the ball on the creature comforts while Holden let the N/A LS engines date while concentrating right at the death knell on adding tech features.

And we as performance enthusiasts who lapped up these cheap alternatives to the expensive Euro and Jap offerings were the ones who loss out by their demise.

I own far more Holdens than any other brand and I’m a huge fan but I'd like to think I’m not silly and as good as the last LE, SS, SSV and Redline Commodores are they still didn’t stock for stock beat the higher end cars in any area other than price.

I know many owners would like to think otherwise but that the reality.




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A predictable opinion PH and certainly not without sound basis. The thread has drifted as a RWD V8 does so well. But it's good banter. Moreover the things you mention, towing ability, exhaust note, modability etcetera, are all important aspects of what makes theses cars so great. To ignore them, would be an injustice to the car and the thread. It would also sway the debate in favour of euro and jap performance cars, which often (not always of course) are not great at two of those things in particular. Where the Commodore excels. Irrespective of price, my view, rightly or wrongly, is there are areas where these cars can not only compete with, but better the imports. Why? Because they were made here, for here.
Longevity is another area. Our cars last in our environment, where many imports have failed. Agaon, not all. Extra or over engineering doesn't always result in better. The right, simple design and enginieering can trump the former as being fit for purpose. If it's more fit for purpose, then it's better in that application. I'm sure you can think of myriad examples. I know I can.
Take the M5. Very impressive machine. I love it. But, very highly strung. Hmmm? Will it last with everday use? Hot, cold, hard, pot holed, fast, slow, towing the boat / van, 4 adults, 2 & kids... I think not. Actually there's a very limited application for such cars. A bit of a one trick pony in my view. Still, a fantastic performance sedan in many ways. Based on countless reviews. But, the next not so old Bimmer or Merc I see on my way to work, with smelly blue oil smoke pouring from the exhaust, won't be the last. The M5 and a number of euro and jap cohorts are not so good in areas, even a stock VF2 V8 Sportwagon would excel in. Let alone an LE. At a track day, there my be little between them all?
With all that German or Japanese engineering, bespoke this and that, just how these cars aren't light years ahead is perhaps the biggest surprise. In terms of being an everyday driver for an Australian family, that couples as a performance sedan. The VF2 stands alone I beleive. It certainly stands proud in some very distinctive company.
Whilst the thread is about stock, the fact is, that introduce after market or even OEM modifications into the mix and the imports can get left it the tyre smoke. Clearly that's a futile debate though.
For those who demand the finer things in life, silver service dining etc, the euro's or high end japs are the only way to go. I like those things too. I can have the euro and jap imports too, if I really want one. But, I won't, not yet anyway. Because both my Commodores are "better" for what I use them for.
BTW mate, the thread wasn't only intended to be about new cars. So, there are many more examples the throw into the discussion apart from the ballsy Hemi 300c

 

[monty_vfssv]

An underpowered over sized motor... good for long life reliability.

Is it really that reliable when the lifters start to clap out at 20k km? Or the rocker bearings start to walk out and drop needle bearings all through your engine? Not my idea of reliable..

 

[monstar]

@panhead you are right, this isn’t the best place to argue Deutschland über alles.
Nür a couple of points to level the argument and we’ll agree to disagree:
I am fluent in German, fave band was Kraftwerk, was raised washing / caring for dad’s obsession with Mercedes Benz part of the QLD club; was given a 220SE “Finny” as the first ‘proper’ car after learners in an EK; prone to neo Nazi tendencies as a youth; tore down M10s in successive 2002 early 20s; opportune buy 300SEL country cruiser turned concourse car. Gibt es mir liebchen!
About superior engineering, from Daimler AG, before that DMG before that Mercedes Brand before that Benz before that Otto, so definitely a historical lineage to be sure.

But not the only lineage since Lenoir, I mention that because of course there is creativity and diversity in engineering worldwide apart from ze German industrial line of commerce, patents and war machines. In that context the cross plane V8 is very New World, Merican flavour. Technology born completely outside of Europe entirely Cadillac now GM’s domain, historically.
Far superior to the I8 of Hitler’s Staff cars and more reliable and practical than the V12 of the Panzer Maus.
It is with the V8 that the Daimler story sort of faltered for fort years until the M100, in a car that cost more than a new archtecuturally designed home and land package at the time, built for millionaires and their drivers, the most expensive and one of the fastest cars in the world. A one car blitzkreig against the big blocks and land yachts of the American late 60s.
I loved the Grösser, and it’s dry sump fuel injected engine sat through practical maintenance with German mechanics years before the explosive myth which has morphed an engine (capacity) into bizzare legend, shaped through years of beer hall stories about the magical AMG. Much the same as Alpina and Arbath in the early late 60s early 70s.
Everyone has a perspective informed by life events, suffice it to say mine is on par with tens of thousands critical of the expectations built by Daimler and the reality of cost poor engineering employed with the design and maintenance of the M156.
To argue an M156 is as ‘good’ as the last of the LS based on performance is absurd, given the cost, pain, suffering, lawsuits and general BS from the slut of a company Mercedes-AMG has become touting this legendary piece of reality distortion.
It’s a lovely engine but not one for everyday driving for a decade, no more capable than an LS, which is more reliable, less complicated bulky and less expensive by an order of magnitude.

 

[woooo]

Is it really that reliable when the lifters start to clap out at 20k km? Or the rocker bearings start to walk out and drop needle bearings all through your engine? Not my idea of reliable..

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[monstar]

BTW @panhead I don’t leave it to others to sort out real truths, I call it for what it is when I see it. Not always PC or popular, three years ago said exactly same thing as above didn’t go down too well with non-LS owners. Full diatribe here.
If the tide of facts and figures bamboozle you then you could always politely inquire for an explanation, after all this is a forum, not FaceBook. Not saying FaceBook is a bad thing, ideal for daily boasting about your success in terms of monetary wealth and pride in personal car collection, as opposed to discursive dialogue

 

[duaned]

 

[426Cuda]

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