JC Political Thread - For All Things Political Part 2

[vr94ss]

Yeah cool story bro. It seems to forget that government issued bonds (one of the methods by which govco borrows money) eventually become worthless as their debt level (and risk of default) increases. Further, if it were so easy as the article suggests, why is Greece and much of europe effectively broke? All that rolling economic trainwreck that is much of Europe was just made up? Further, do a bit of research to the long term effects of countries that simply print more money. Britten and USA did it to a limited extent recently during the financial crisis and seem to have gotten away with it. Other countries have tried it more often with disastrous results over history.

The comments after the article cover the Greece situation, I think you can put that down to the Euro. I can post it or relay it if you don't want to read them. So you'd like to do away with gov bonds? The NBN is being built with bonds, not out of the budget. These bonds are sold to people who know the risks, investment is a gamble but govt bonds are pretty sound. These investors might even be foreign, like Turnbull's investments in Sweden's FTTP. I don't remember the selling of AU gov bonds to pay for WW2 being an economy breaker.
Australian Government Bonds - Bloomberg

 

[Reaper]

The comments after the article cover the Greece situation, I think you can put that down to the Euro. I can post it or relay it if you don't want to read them. So you'd like to do away with gov bonds? The NBN is being built with bonds, not out of the budget. These bonds are sold to people who know the risks, investment is a gamble but govt bonds are pretty sound. These investors might even be foreign, like Turnbull's investments in Sweden's FTTP. I don't remember the selling of AU gov bonds to pay for WW2 being an economy breaker.
Australian Government Bonds - Bloomberg

ffs. are you really that dumb or do you just pretend? No, I didn't say do away with bonds. The point is that it's not the bottomless pit you make out. Yes Australian bonds are pretty sound. Up until the GFC, most government bonds were sound. Now many of them aren't worth the electrons they are printed with.

Further to that, why else did Wayne Swan and Penny Wrong stake their (very small amount that they had) political credibility on delivering a budget surplus and went on adnausium why it was critical that it happened? Just to spell it out for you, there are some times when running a federal deficit budget is very appropriate and justified. Year upon year with no change in sight is very dangerous though.

 

[vr94ss]

ffs. are you really that dumb or do you just pretend? No, I didn't say do away with bonds. The point is that it's not the bottomless pit you make out. Yes Australian bonds are pretty sound. Up until the GFC, most government bonds were sound. Now many of them aren't worth the electrons they are printed with.

Thank's Not being a bottomless pit is not the same as needing to balance a budget every year like a family with a fixed income. If you are really saying they are, even with google at your fingertips, economists saying the opposite, then maybe you should review your question after ffs in the mirror..

Further to that, why else did Wayne Swan and Penny Wrong stake their (very small amount that they had) political credibility on delivering a budget surplus and went on adnausium why it was critical that it happened? Just to spell it out for you, there are some times when running a federal deficit budget is very appropriate and justified. Year upon year with no change in sight is very dangerous though.

Because of media pressure? To placate the people that believe that stupid meme you posted? Simple vote grabbing crap? Economists if you remember were saying that the gov shouldn't be talking like that and a surplus was not important.

 

[c2105026]

No was thinking, if we buy more products from companies/entities that exist overseas (eg. buying stuff online from america/eu/china) we give money to companies and workers who don't give the ATO a cent. I understand that a reason (amongst many) for budget shortfall is fewer receipts from companies. If we supported local companies and businesses, means more money for them, that they can pay a flat company tax on their increased profit, boosting ATO revenue. More local money could then flow onto more local jobs, and investment in other local industries, suppliers etc.

 

[Reaper]

No was thinking, if we buy more products from companies/entities that exist overseas (eg. buying stuff online from america/eu/china) we give money to companies and workers who don't give the ATO a cent. I understand that a reason (amongst many) for budget shortfall is fewer receipts from companies. If we supported local companies and businesses, means more money for them, that they can pay a flat company tax on their increased profit, boosting ATO revenue. More local money could then flow onto more local jobs, and investment in other local industries, suppliers etc.

I'm with you on that one. Wow - C3P0 might be turning into a capitalist. I wonder if you realize how to achieve such a thing? Here are a few suggestions; business should be encouraged at every step to operate and manufacture in Australia with favourable taxation, IR laws and regulation, particularly encouraging businesses to set up in regional towns/cities, away from the already over crowded metropolitan areas. For those too stupid to figure it out, that doesn't include pay and safety levels akin to the 3rd world.

 

[Calaber]

Because people buy said junk $2 at a time millions of times per year :bang:

Sure, but how many of them only buy it because it's available, not because there is a demand for it. Is it a case of supply creating demand, or demand creating supply? If our "open market" wasn't quite so "open", this rubbish wouldn't get into the country, or if it did, it might be in much smaller quantities.

 

[DAKSTER]

Most Australians are aware of Coles supermarkets too. By your reasoning them sponsoring the program and having their brand flashed all over it is a complete and utter waste of money too. I bow to your superior marketing knowledge :bang:

You have no sense of perspective at all do you? When Coles advertises, it advertises products. It offers details of a product, the current apparently low price for a product, and hopes to lure you to their store with a specific purpose in mind. Obviously, while you are there, they hope you will buy other stuff as well.

When you see an ad for Coles, they don't just say 'come to Coles, we are the greatest shop in Australia' because that would be a complete waste of time. They offer specifics.

When you see Melbourne or Victoria being mentioned on Master Chef, do they offer specifics on what advantages Melbourne may have as a holiday destination, places that are awesome to go to, how much it cost to go there, etc.? I don't watch stupid shows like that, but my guess is clearly no.

I'm very aware of a little country called the USA. I guess you could say my 'awareness' is high, because they are mentioned daily on the news from both good and bad viewpoints. Simply hearing them mentioned regularly does not imbue me with the urge to fly over and visit however. Now if I saw ad campaigns advertising their various attractions, that might make a difference.

I'm equally aware of a state called Victoria, and a city called Melbourne. OK, I have already been there, but not as a tourist. I think its likely that a major percentage of Australians have done the same. That doesn't make multiple mentions of them any more useful in making them a holiday destination though. For that to be effective, I would need specifics. A destination and a deal.. 'Come to Mt Buller, here are some photos of the pretty snow, a few short videos of people skiing, and look at this price - much cheaper than Thredbo'.

Constant mention of a state which we all know about, with no specifics or special offers, on a show that is AFAIK only shown in Australia, will not 'sell' Victoria at all. Any money given to these shows would be much more effectively spent on a 30 second tv commercial showing specific attractions or deals.

It appears to me that you think 'marketing gurus' are infallible. Such a shame you think scientists are completely wrong on so many things, and economists know nothing either. If you agree with a viewpoint, everyone else is an idiot for not doing so. If you don't agree with a viewpoint then of course we are all idiots for believing it. This is evidenced by almost all your comments, and particularly in the way you appear to think its OK to say 'ffs are you stupid or do you just pretend' as you did a few posts back.

You tell me that I only offer stuff that supports my own viewpoint, but you only responded to a small portion of my last post, because you don't have a reply to the rest that would make you feel good. You have a very closed mind, yet you dare to accuse others of being stupid.

I retract my comment that 'You acknowledge when something doesn't support your argument'. You don't, you simply ignore it. Either that, or you attack people because they have a different viewpoint to yourself. Attack is the best means of defence?

I would like, just once, for you to say something like 'OK, on that point I am happy to concede'. It will never happen. You will attack, argue or ignore. You are never wrong.

 

[Reaper]

You have no sense of perspective at all do you? When Coles advertises, it advertises products. It offers details of a product, the current apparently low price for a product, and hopes to lure you to their store with a specific purpose in mind. Obviously, while you are there, they hope you will buy other stuff as well.

When you see an ad for Coles, they don't just say 'come to Coles, we are the greatest shop in Australia' because that would be a complete waste of time. They offer specifics.

No specifics what so ever. They just had Coles signs all thru the show.

When you see Melbourne or Victoria being mentioned on Master Chef, do they offer specifics on what advantages Melbourne may have as a holiday destination, places that are awesome to go to, how much it cost to go there, etc.? I don't watch stupid shows like that, but my guess is clearly no.

I'm very aware of a little country called the USA. I guess you could say my 'awareness' is high, because they are mentioned daily on the news from both good and bad viewpoints. Simply hearing them mentioned regularly does not imbue me with the urge to fly over and visit however. Now if I saw ad campaigns advertising their various attractions, that might make a difference.

I'm equally aware of a state called Victoria, and a city called Melbourne. OK, I have already been there, but not as a tourist. I think its likely that a major percentage of Australians have done the same. That doesn't make multiple mentions of them any more useful in making them a holiday destination though. For that to be effective, I would need specifics. A destination and a deal.. 'Come to Mt Buller, here are some photos of the pretty snow, a few short videos of people skiing, and look at this price - much cheaper than Thredbo'.

Constant mention of a state which we all know about, with no specifics or special offers, on a show that is AFAIK only shown in Australia, will not 'sell' Victoria at all. Any money given to these shows would be much more effectively spent on a 30 second tv commercial showing specific attractions or deals.

It appears to me that you think 'marketing gurus' are infallible. Such a shame you think scientists are completely wrong on so many things, and economists know nothing either. If you agree with a viewpoint, everyone else is an idiot for not doing so. If you don't agree with a viewpoint then of course we are all idiots for believing it. This is evidenced by almost all your comments, and particularly in the way you appear to think its OK to say 'ffs are you stupid or do you just pretend' as you did a few posts back.

Of course I don't think they are infallible, I do however understand the basics of marketing and brand building. Weather this particular investment was worth while I can't say (same with the BB one) as I'm not privvy to either the commercial arrangements, nor the exact target they were looking to achieve.

You tell me that I only offer stuff that supports my own viewpoint, but you only responded to a small portion of my last post, because you don't have a reply to the rest that would make you feel good. You have a very closed mind, yet you dare to accuse others of being stupid.

I retract my comment that 'You acknowledge when something doesn't support your argument'. You don't, you simply ignore it. Either that, or you attack people because they have a different viewpoint to yourself. Attack is the best means of defence?

I would like, just once, for you to say something like 'OK, on that point I am happy to concede'. It will never happen. You will attack, argue or ignore. You are never wrong.

As for the rest of your post regarding the bins, I had posted earlier that I probably wouldn't have done it that way and the way the article read it didn't look good. how many times do you want to deal with the same thing?

And yeah, I'm fine with telling some that they are stupid because in the context of it, they were trying to present the argument that there is no problem with infinite debt levels and we should just go borrow as a country as much as we like. For that matter, why even bother with taxes at all??? Just borrow it all :bang:. Greece tried something similar for a while - ever looked into how it has worked out for them?

 

[c2105026]

I'm with you on that one. Wow - C3P0 might be turning into a capitalist. I wonder if you realize how to achieve such a thing? Here are a few suggestions; business should be encouraged at every step to operate and manufacture in Australia with favourable taxation, IR laws and regulation, particularly encouraging businesses to set up in regional towns/cities, away from the already over crowded metropolitan areas. For those too stupid to figure it out, that doesn't include pay and safety levels akin to the 3rd world.

An alternative is to rip up free-trade agreements and introduce a degree of protectionism. That is another thing with free trade agreements - no tariffs also means lower taxation revenue. To moderate cost of living pressures you could alter GST & tax rates of course.

I am 100% behind getting populations out into regional areas. In Orange we have a whitegoods factory. It was locally owned but back in the 90s it was bought out by the Swedes (i think) and by the looks of things it will be shut in 3 yrs, after 70 yrs of employing Orange workers. Multinationals could not give a toss about the communities that help them produce their goods. Its a two way street. Sydney is bursting at the seams, with traffic, pollution and unaffordable housing. Regional areas are slowly dying, with very affordable housing and a fantastic lifestyle.

I have no issue at all with any business, provided of course its sustainable, ethical and improves human existence. I don't really identify with pure socialism; if anything I'm a social democrat. Indeed the taxation system could be kinder to small business. If we can have a progressive tax system for personal income, why not on businesses? Businesses starting up with minimal profit would pay little tax to help them get going, multinationals can give back to the nations that allow them to exist, make profit, and support with services? I'd abolish payroll tax; in NSW it means a small hairdresser is paying 37% on their profit! Apparently 95% of all business flop within the first 5 years; there could be better information/training for people wanting to start small business. The business world is changing and new technologies and social developments mean new opportunities. Eg. when we run out of oil, the market will be flooded with energy replacements; legalising gay marriage could create a niche market for specialist gay wedding planners etc.

 

[minux]

legalising gay marriage could create a niche market for specialist gay wedding planners etc.

Damn straight, I have written to Abbott twice now (had replies both times, no reply from Gillards office though ) outlining in the community of people I deal with the job benefits of us small business owners alone in allowing same sex marriage. I would love nothing more than for it to be passed tomorrow, I think if T.A gets in, he will allow a conscience vote and we will saw laws passed to allow it.

I already have dozens of weddings booked to go once laws pass, many of my couples waiting do not want to go abroad to do it, nor should they have to.