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There was an almighty KABOOM in my SV6 engine( ecotech)

Discussion in 'VE Holden Commodore (2006 - 2013)' started by Sallianne, Jul 29, 2016.

  1. Smashfist

    Smashfist Active Member

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    1) The oil pump is not removed to do timing chains, nor is the sprocket on the front of the crank

    2) If it was a workmanship issue it would have **** itself a truckload sooner than 10 days

    3) We don't know service history (I've seen alloytec after alloytec throw bottom end bearings due to being 5k over on a few intervals in a row)

    4) Op says that "no sludging in sump" however the sump isn't removed to do timing chains

    In fact nothing to do with the bottom end has anything to do with a timing chain job. Unless pistons hit valves, the timing chains being replaced has nothing at all to do with a bottom end bearing failure. Hell most people that say "my car is well cared for" that I see through means they wash the car every 2 weeks, not that they service it regularly.
     
  2. TigaVTSS57

    TigaVTSS57 Member

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    Just to clear this up a little, you said the vehicle has 90,000kms on the clock and that the timing chains were an issue at 68,000km. You also said that the chains were replaced 2 week ago? Did you drive 22,000kms in 2 weeks or was that just a typo? Just curious.
     
  3. pebbs

    pebbs Member

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    Sallianne could you ask the mechanics if there is a problem with the TPS (throttle positioning sensor) please. This forms part of the throttle body and would have been removed to gain better access the timing chain. To cut a long story short there are sensors on the accelerator pedal that send signals to the ECM and from there to the TPS to open the throttle.
    Now if this or another sensor were faulty it is possible that the signal could have caused the engine to over rev and not select a gear. It may have triggered a fault code for one of these parts.
    Now I am not saying that this may have been damaged when removed, but a faulty sensor or sensors could be the reason why the motor over revved causing the bearings to fail.
     
  4. Sallianne

    Sallianne New Member

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    Hi Pebbs I asked the questions got a stunned response "well it could be but no ,,,butI'll ask" I actually asked too look at the problem....4 main brearing (1346)have sheared metal filing all through the bottom in collected in the oil and the filter and the and some on the camshaft there was this big scartch on the bottom of the sump....the now have an expert engineer in looking at it.....i burst into tears talking to holden customer car today....I need a good reliable can to get down to mum and dad who are 125kms away....dad has advance dementia try to supoort them single income family hubby can't work b/c of neck injury....last thing i needed....but thank you everyone for your thoughts and supportxxx hugxxx
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
  5. Sallianne

    Sallianne New Member

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    the timing chain was meant to be replaced at 68000kms but they didn't follow it up....things were annoying me one day the being one the constant reminder so finally at 88000kms it got changed with good will from holden customer care i just paid for the chain....then 10days later....my car died
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2016
  6. pebbs

    pebbs Member

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    Wow 4 of the 6 bearings are R/S, something seriously wrong there.
    I would love to see the motor, especially the areas of the timing chain and the condition of the valves.
    As there appears to be so much metal deposited around the motor just ask them in a gentle way were the sprockets replaced at the same time as the timing chain and were they worn at all.
    For metal parts to be found up on the camshaft it would appear that it has circulated around the motor and has been doing so for some time and would have entered the bearings as well.
    They must have changed the oil when they did the timing chain and should have noticed any metal deposits in the oil or don’t they look at the oil for signs of trouble?

    Now for the big question, ask them how could they have possibly had the engine running, tested it and found nothing wrong when you had it towed there but the next day found all these problems?
    Something is seriously amiss here. It doesn’t make sense. Have they been servicing the vehicle all along?
     
  7. Smashfist

    Smashfist Active Member

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    If the job was done as goodwill the oil would have been saved and reused. Holden doesn't pay for replacement of consumables unless they're contaminated (i.e. by metal during an engine failure). Correct procedure is to drain and catch the oil (so the oil isn't filled with coolant when you pull the front cover), drain the sump of any coolant when it goes back together and reuse/top up the oil.

    I've seen engines cool down after failure, run ok for a short period then start knocking when a bit of heat gets into them again. It's unlikely but it can happen.

    For multiple bearings to fail that engine's had a shortage of oil supply. I wonder how much carbon was in the oil pump pickup.
     
  8. pebbs

    pebbs Member

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    Goodwill does not mean half a job, Call me pedantic if you like but there is no way I would accept that they re use oil from my vehicle or not flush it after any coolant leaked into the sump. The only thing between a good motor and a blown one is good oil.
     
  9. greenacc

    greenacc Searching for the billion

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    And how many nuts and bolts...
     
  10. Sabbath'

    Sabbath' Redblock Jesus

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    20,000km of slack chains creating rubbing byproduct. Whether it's from the tensioners, guides or the sprockets being worn down. How many times did the oil get changed in that 20,000km?
     
  11. Smashfist

    Smashfist Active Member

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    Hardly half a job. If the car is serviced appropriately there's no reason it can't be reused if captured in an appropriate container. It's been this way across a heap of manufacturers for years for any warranty claims that require fluid to be drained. If we replaced oil on every car we did a sump oil leak repair or coolant for head replacements etc it would cost manufacturers thousands of dollars a year they don't need to pay for. A dealer can claim top ups but not a complete refresh of fluids (which is the owner's responsibility to do as a service item).

    Some people seem to think that warranty means they never have to spend a dollar on the car, but it's typically cars owned by the same people that have so many problems when just out of warranty. Coincidence? I doubt it.

    I wouldn't expect loose chains to cause TOO much of a drama. If the chain isn't slack enough to jump on the sprockets then it should be fine from that perspective because the chain rubs on the sprockets and guides anyway. Whipping causing the chains to rub abnormally may cause a small amount of byproducts but I've never really seen enough excessive wear on guides/sprockets to be concerned about.

    That being said, why did the owner drive the car for 20,000km with a timing chain fault they knew about....
     
  12. pebbs

    pebbs Member

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    Then tell the owner its their responsibility, that,s why owners get the shits with dealers, they don,t want to discuss anything, just pay the bill.
    What I expect from a dealer is that he carry out all the necessary checks that are written in the service booklet, and for them to do the job without numerous return visits to correct their mistakes, nothing more and nothing less.
    I don't expect to be told they don't know what a problem and being lied to.
    As for servicing intervals, anyone who neglects to do them cannot complain when something goes wrong.
     
  13. Sabbath'

    Sabbath' Redblock Jesus

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. Sallianne

    Sallianne New Member

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    Just clarify this for me, when they did the timing chain, should they have noticed metal in the sump oil then? Or look in the sump the Oil then as part of the Timing chain procedure? ...... Hindsight is a wonderful thing I was going to get the car serviced in this month as the service was going to cost close to $900 which nearly floored me when they said we'll do it with the timing chain....told them I had to pace it out but would book it in ( most services would be around the $300 mark) but then this happened....
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  15. Sallianne

    Sallianne New Member

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    What happened Smashfist was the indicator went off we let Holden know ...they told us it was a battery issue ...so we changed the battery...it kept going ..they told us to bring it in they said it was a computer error and they had fixed it...I got to my parents placed it occurred again The Holden officer service "oh it's the timing chain we will have to go through Holden Customer Care and ask for good will that was in the November when I had it serviced earlier than needed ...xmas etc waiting for him to get back to me...never did .... But I remember him saying it wasn't too much of a problem...personal circumstances arose with my father ...I got annoyed with noise from the indicator called Holden went through the whole B/S again...the Blame game etc ...who did what... no forwarding phone number...which my numbers nevr changed... blah blah blah ....had to argue my point with Holden Customer Care .....ended up paying for the timing chain....the car never missed a beat ...the oil was always checked water etc no noises started always ran beautifully .....so go figure....because I can't ....the car was serviced at 72500kms...
     
  16. redvxr8clubby

    redvxr8clubby Active Member

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    If the car was last serviced at 72,500 Km and it now has 90,000 by Holden schedule it needs to be done every 15,000Km, given the chain fix was heavily subsidised by Holden and presumably your old oil went back in when it was already past schedule is not good. I can understand your circumstances and quote for $900 for the 90,000Km service, but so often it is said on this website that you just can't go past recommended service intervals with these alloytec engines. From the bearing problems it would seem lack of lubrication is the cause. Oil past it's time, maybe the oil pump may be a problem. It's all a bit sad, hopefully the engine is repairable. There are many on this website that will say you should have the oil changes done more frequently than Holdens recommended 12 months 15,000 Km. Myself I think if you were to do one additional oil change over 2 year period (so oil an oil change every 8 months or 10,000 Km) should be much better for your car.
     
  17. pebbs

    pebbs Member

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    Sallianne I believe any GOOD mechanical workshop would have changed the oil when doing the timing chain, not re use, tell you about it and charge you accordingly.
    The fact that the issues you have had with this dealer and their poor attempt to correctly diagnose that the timing chain was a problem especially when a service light continued to come on indicates to me they are proportionately to blame.

    If the vehicle has been serviced as recommended by Holden and you hand book stamped and recorded it would give you a very good bargaining tool however if it has not you will have to wear a proportion of the blame.

    I think if they are reasonable people they should contribute at least half of the cost towards the repairs or replacement to your vehicle and would be strongly suggesting this to them when all the facts are in.

    You take you vehicle back to a dealer because the claim they are the specialists when it comes to servicing their brand of vehicle.
    They therefor are aware from previous repairs to timing chains especially when this model is known by the industry for problems associated with the timing chain and also battery drain problems.
    Good luck dealing with the dealership.
     
  18. pebbs

    pebbs Member

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    It seems to me that Holden have had this problem with timing chains since the invent of the VZ SV6 and have done very little to rectify the problem.
    People with vehicles as late as 2013 are still having failures in this area.
    I realize that they changed the timing chain to a stronger version but it appears that this still has not resolved the problem so when does it become a manufacturing fault and a recall take place or has it gone on so long that its not now financially possible.
    I expect the latter.
    Any wonder GMH have lost so many sales and are closing shop.
    Other manufacturers at least have the decency to advise in their servicing scheduled that their timing chains need to be periodically replaced, but not Holden.
    Instead they stuck their head in the sand and made out only other manufacturers have timing chain problems.

    It seems that the only VE that doesnt have the problem or at least is not as prevalent is the V8. Perhaps we all should have bought one of these instead.
     
  19. Sallianne

    Sallianne New Member

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    Funny you should say that about buying a V8 instead because we nearly did....I just realised we never received our receipt for the service on the timing chain...they were going to post it to us because they couldn't give it to us then and their because of fluctuations in the market placeso i don't know anything they have done....must ask for a copy to be emailed....
     
  20. immortality

    immortality Home of the smoky breakfast Bacon! Staff Member

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    It is a fairly sad day when a timing chain has the same (or shorter) service life than a timing belt.....
     

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