Timing

[Unknownn]

Hello,

it’s my first time doing a timing chain so forgive my ignorance.

I’ve put the engine in phase/ stage two put special tool on camshafts and taken chain, tensioner,etc.

Now I’ve thought what I put the engine in stage one reason I say this “I thought“ was I just realised that it’s not because the LH camshafts are facing in the opposite direction of where they are supposed to be (flats arent facing upwards to put the special tool in) and my ignorance went along with it and taken the chain,tensioners,etc.

before starting the job I was watching a video of someone doing it and they had never mentioned anything about camshafts positioning so it’s my fault for not researching properly.

now my question is because the LH camshafts are 360 degrees off to stage one can I turn the crankshaft individually then try to turn the LH camshafts where the flats are facing up?

id really appreciate the help

 

[Fu Manchu]

@krusing?

 

[uglyoldfatbastard]

There is a big misconception about how to do timing chains.
Not saying this guy is right but this method does work as we tried it on a LF1 that was going to the dump anyway.
Also there is a comment down lower where another person explains how to reset the timing to where it is supposed to be to put the chains back on.
Now be aware I have never done that retiming on a VE Commodore I am just giving you information to read and understand while you wait for someone with more experience to come along.
What he says makes sense and I have done similar on a multi cylinder motorbikes but obviously you need to work out what to do.
I will say this don't just randomly turn the cams as you will create more issues.

 

[Unknownn]

There is a big misconception about how to do timing chains.
Not saying this guy is right but this method does work as we tried it on a LF1 that was going to the dump anyway.
Also there is a comment down lower where another person explains how to reset the timing to where it is supposed to be to put the chains back on.
Now be aware I have never done that retiming on a VE Commodore I am just giving you information to read and understand while you wait for someone with more experience to come along.
What he says makes sense and I have done similar on a multi cylinder motorbikes but obviously you need to work out what to do.
I will say this don't just randomly turn the cams as you will create more issues.

Thank you for the reply, I have read a few threads relating to timing chain replacement but I haven’t found one about resetting timing to phase one without the chain on.
Any chance you could direct me to the post?

 

[Skylarking]

now my question is because the LH camshafts are 360 degrees off to stage one can I turn the crankshaft individually then try to turn the LH camshafts where the flats are facing up?

It’s not at all clear to me where you are in the repair process and whether you’ve removed the old chains, old guides and old tensioners and now find the timing wasn’t as it was described in the (chain kit or vehicle) manufacturers process.

As such I’d be very cautious and wouldn’t be turning cam shafts or cranks independently any where near 360 degrees as these engines are an interference design. Heck I’d be concerned turning it 10 degrees

Really, the stage 1 & 2 process is odd to me being the engine is interference fit but strangely if the manufacturer allows 115 (?) degree rotation going from stage 1 to stage 2. But that’s in a controlled timing position so I’d only turn it in the specific method the manufacturer states.

Start playing loosely gooses with how you turn an interference engine and the pistons can hit valves. That’s almost a certainty if your turning a cam or crank independently of the other part 360 degrees

The video below (I posted some time again in the video thread) describes the complete process. It’s for a 2013 Archadia V6 and though I’m not sure which version it is, LFX, LFY or LGX. all these engines are all from the same engine family and are this the same interference design and it should give you a guide to the factory process.

The fact you’ve possibly screwed the cam chain install (not a criticism as stuff happens) makes it difficult for anyone to advise you on how to correct it without knowing explicitly how you did the whole thing (and where the crank and cams were at the start of the process and how you moved them during the process).

I’ve never seen a video on how to recover a timing chain muck up if one started at the wrong timing point and then rotated the crank to stage 2 with only left cam and crank chains installed.

Not sure if you should be worried yet but I’d be a little concerned whether I’ve pushed on an open valve…

 

[Unknownn]

It’s not at all clear to me where you are in the repair process and whether you’ve removed the old chains, old guides and old tensioners and now find the timing wasn’t as it was described in the (chain kit or vehicle) manufacturers process.

As such I’d be very cautious and wouldn’t be turning cam shafts or cranks independently any where near 360 degrees as these engines are an interference design. Heck I’d be concerned turning it 10 degrees

Really, the stage 1 & 2 process is odd to me being the engine is interference fit but strangely if the manufacturer allows 115 (?) degree rotation going from stage 1 to stage 2. But that’s in a controlled timing position so I’d only turn it in the specific method the manufacturer states.

Start playing loosely gooses with how you turn an interference engine and the pistons can hit valves. That’s almost a certainty if your turning a cam or crank independently of the other part 360 degrees

The video below (I posted some time again in the video thread) describes the complete process. It’s for a 2013 Archadia V6 and though I’m not sure which version it is, LFX, LFY or LGX. all these engines are all from the same engine family and are this the same interference design and it should give you a guide to the factory process.

The fact you’ve possibly screwed the cam chain install (not a criticism as stuff happens) makes it difficult for anyone to advise you on how to correct it without knowing explicitly how you did the whole thing (and where the crank and cams were at the start of the process and how you moved them during the process).

I’ve never seen a video on how to recover a timing chain muck up if one started at the wrong timing point and then rotated the crank to stage 2 with only left cam and crank chains installed.

Not sure if you should be worried yet but I’d be a little concerned whether I’ve pushed on an open valve…

Okay so basically

It’s not at all clear to me where you are in the repair process and whether you’ve removed the old chains, old guides and old tensioners and now find the timing wasn’t as it was described in the (chain kit or vehicle) manufacturers process.

As such I’d be very cautious and wouldn’t be turning cam shafts or cranks independently any where near 360 degrees as these engines are an interference design. Heck I’d be concerned turning it 10 degrees

Really, the stage 1 & 2 process is odd to me being the engine is interference fit but strangely if the manufacturer allows 115 (?) degree rotation going from stage 1 to stage 2. But that’s in a controlled timing position so I’d only turn it in the specific method the manufacturer states.

Start playing loosely gooses with how you turn an interference engine and the pistons can hit valves. That’s almost a certainty if your turning a cam or crank independently of the other part 360 degrees

The video below (I posted some time again in the video thread) describes the complete process. It’s for a 2013 Archadia V6 and though I’m not sure which version it is, LFX, LFY or LGX. all these engines are all from the same engine family and are this the same interference design and it should give you a guide to the factory process.

The fact you’ve possibly screwed the cam chain install (not a criticism as stuff happens) makes it difficult for anyone to advise you on how to correct it without knowing explicitly how you did the whole thing (and where the crank and cams were at the start of the process and how you moved them during the process).

I’ve never seen a video on how to recover a timing chain muck up if one started at the wrong timing point and then rotated the crank to stage 2 with only left cam and crank chains installed.

Not sure if you should be worried yet but I’d be a little concerned whether I’ve pushed on an open valve…

Right now the old chains, tensioners, guides are removed.

The way that I followed was turn the crankshaft clockwise and
Set engine to stage two. Taken off RH chain, tensioner,guide.
Set to “stage one”
Taken primary chain, tensioner but left the guide in still and taken off RB front intermediate sprocket.
Then taken off LH tensioner, guide, LB front intermediate sprocket, then the guide at top of oil pump (in between the two sprockets) then LH chain.

Because people have different views and a way of doing it
I thought it’ll be best to watch and follow one method (my fault) anyways I was watching and followed that step process on it and the person doing it didn’t mention anything about where the cams should be facing and because I relied on that video specifically it was only till late I found out AFTER taking the whole lot out that someone else said that in order to get to phase one set correctly you have to rotate the crank make sure the mark on the oil pump matches the one on the gear set that at the front of the oil pump. Then that’s when I realised I messed up badly till then I haven’t touched it.

I replaced the oil pump too.
Now please don’t be negative to me but I had put it into first gear to crack the harmonic balancer bolt to take the oil pump out and made sure I didn’t move it from where I left it before.
But I hadn’t felt or saw anything going wrong but you can tell me otherwise.

 

[uglyoldfatbastard]

Thank you for the reply, I have read a few threads relating to timing chain replacement but I haven’t found one about resetting timing to phase one without the chain on.
Any chance you could direct me to the post?

It's all on the video I linked. In the comments on the video there is a comment from one of the viewers.
You have to watch it on youtube not on here however what he said is in red below. Once again not my words.
Thank you APV. I had to be called in to assist a backyard mech who agreed to replace bad timing chains on my daughters Chevy Travers 3.6 L V-6 engine. The Mech was completely flummoxed about the install after he started turning the crank and cams and could not get back to installation order & TDC. Your Holden directions allowed me to install the chains in one go. Of course I had to go through resetting the engine to top dead center and having my daughter order the cam retainers beforehand to make the job easier and those cams love to flop over with annoying consistency without the retainers. One point you should remind your viewers who are backyard mechs is that in order to get back to TDC it is best to have a screw-in whistle tool and another fellow to turn the crank shaft while you watch the cams and flip them to the the right position as you get back to TDC to ensure there will be no damaged valves. IF the one cranking on the shaft encounters resistance then he stops and you attempt to move the cams into place. Once you have turned your crank shaft up to TDC and are hearing or sensing the piston blowing out air you are sure that all valves on piston one are closed and you are coming up to TDC. Once you have the cams back in order and retained with the retaining tools it is a simpler job to set in the chains. Another point is that if you don't get a replacement chain set with well marked indicator links it is so important to paint up or mark all the links as well as the engine gears to align everything with ease. The Back yard mech had done none of this which helped confuse and frustrate him even more. Following the Aussie Holden method I was able to install the chains in one go and the engine started on the first try. There are issues with this engine and it was apparent that my daughter was horrible with monitoring the oil level with this model as she had never encountered an engine that blew our so much oil in such a short time on a regular basis causing engine oil to be consistently low. I have, after finishing up the install added additives to clean out the engine and will dump the oil after a short while hoping that the gunk will mostly be cleared out. Reassembly of this engine in the engine bay is no joke and you have to have the proper tools and a knowledge base and/or watch numerous videos before attempting the job. It is always best to take photos while during disassembly and invest in the repair manual that you can get online or at the auto parts store. Please don't waste time trying to follow the other methods on YouTube as this is the best method. Again, thank you.
Show less

 

[Unknownn]

It's all on the video I linked. In the comments on the video there is a comment from one of the viewers.
You have to watch it on youtube not on here however what he said is in red below. Once again not my words.
Thank you APV. I had to be called in to assist a backyard mech who agreed to replace bad timing chains on my daughters Chevy Travers 3.6 L V-6 engine. The Mech was completely flummoxed about the install after he started turning the crank and cams and could not get back to installation order & TDC. Your Holden directions allowed me to install the chains in one go. Of course I had to go through resetting the engine to top dead center and having my daughter order the cam retainers beforehand to make the job easier and those cams love to flop over with annoying consistency without the retainers. One point you should remind your viewers who are backyard mechs is that in order to get back to TDC it is best to have a screw-in whistle tool and another fellow to turn the crank shaft while you watch the cams and flip them to the the right position as you get back to TDC to ensure there will be no damaged valves. IF the one cranking on the shaft encounters resistance then he stops and you attempt to move the cams into place. Once you have turned your crank shaft up to TDC and are hearing or sensing the piston blowing out air you are sure that all valves on piston one are closed and you are coming up to TDC. Once you have the cams back in order and retained with the retaining tools it is a simpler job to set in the chains. Another point is that if you don't get a replacement chain set with well marked indicator links it is so important to paint up or mark all the links as well as the engine gears to align everything with ease. The Back yard mech had done none of this which helped confuse and frustrate him even more. Following the Aussie Holden method I was able to install the chains in one go and the engine started on the first try. There are issues with this engine and it was apparent that my daughter was horrible with monitoring the oil level with this model as she had never encountered an engine that blew our so much oil in such a short time on a regular basis causing engine oil to be consistently low. I have, after finishing up the install added additives to clean out the engine and will dump the oil after a short while hoping that the gunk will mostly be cleared out. Reassembly of this engine in the engine bay is no joke and you have to have the proper tools and a knowledge base and/or watch numerous videos before attempting the job. It is always best to take photos while during disassembly and invest in the repair manual that you can get online or at the auto parts store. Please don't waste time trying to follow the other methods on YouTube as this is the best method. Again, thank you.
Show less

I see thank you for that
I know for next time to not rely on YouTube thank you again

 

[uglyoldfatbastard]

I see thank you for that
I know for next time to not rely on YouTube thank you again

One thing you have learned is to believe nothing of what you read or see on the internet including this forum or what you see on Youtube.
Take everything with a pinch of salt because some people get their kick out of leaving out valuable information thinking that it's better for you to make a mistake so you learn and others are well just dumbasses to be honest.
We have all made mistakes except for a few people on here who know everything (they don't) so don't be worried as everything can be fixed it just takes a bit longer than what we expect.
Once I just finished fixing my car and rolled down the ramp but forgot to lower the trolley jack and smashed the sump and bent the oil pickup. Now I felt like a dumbass all day after doing that but it has never happened again

 

[krusing]

Fixing a timing error is not difficult if you have rotated the CAMS in error,
If you have the Cams Alignment Tools (aka: Cam Locks), it is very simple to re-align the Cams and Timing

With the Cam Locks, a set to suit a VE required, (in your Case)
You can either set it up in Stage 1 of Stage 2,
Depends upon the way you use the Cam Locks.
I preferred Stage 2 (as per image attached)

Your choice,

Also, it is advisable to replace the Oil Pump while you have it pulled down.

When I did my chains twice, I set them up in Stage 2,
Used the CAM locks and had to use a 19mm open end spanned to jiggle the left cam so the chains and LH cam markings aligned up,
If you are not familiar with the markings on the Chains and Cams, as it's a bit difficult stooping over the radiator support panel and looking in the engine bay to align them,
Clean the front of the Cams up, you will see the markings,
and the links on the chains, and the chain gears, that have corresponding markings,
Use a fluorescent chalk pen, or a texter and mark ALL of them accordingly,
As soon as you set the LHS up, the rest will be straight forward.

But before you do install the Chain Tensioners, give the oil ports a blast with compressed air,
as that may dislodge and blow anything solid out of the oil holes.
After that, its a case of re-assembling it as per markings,
But before you do, double check ALL the markings.

Below is a image of the timing marks (Stage 2) that is very self explanatory , for all 3 chains and 3 chain gears,
If you set that up starting from the LHS CAM, then take it from there,
And that should get the timing setup correctly.
I did watch a few Youtube clips and that also provided a few idea's of what to do, and checks as you proceed.