No fuel gauge with check engine light

[SSteve]

Hi all, my VF SSV Redline with 23k kms on the clock…
Im tipping this is going to be fuel sender replacement? I’ve got no fuel gauge response (Except on start it does the full deflection and then back to empty) with a check engine light on. Very disappointed, had the car since new with low kms and serviced at same Holden dealer since new. From what I can tell from a quick search, this is going to be an expensive fix. You would expect a sender unit should be a part that should survive life of car and not treated like a consumable component. I’ll let you know what Holden comes back to me with…should be an interesting conversation.

 

[07GTS]

fuel sender is a moving contact item so will wear over time, if u use a tank of fuel each time u fill up it will last longer, if u just keep it full all the time then it will just wear out the top first and not last as long

 

[SSteve]

fuel sender is a moving contact item so will wear over time, if u use a tank of fuel each time u fill up it will last longer, if u just keep it full all the time then it will just wear out the top first and not last as long

thanks, makes sense.

 

[Skylarking]

fuel sender is a moving contact item so will wear over time

Yes, stuff can wear out but old 60’s cars had fuel senders that lasted for many many decades and 100’s of 1000’s of kms… In essence, back then they were a life of vehicle component (partly because they were more robust and partly because cars back then evaporated away because of rust…

You would expect a sender unit should be a part that should survive life of car and not treated like a consumable component.

It should be the case that the part should last the life of the vehicle especially considering how it’s been packaged (making replacement silly expensive).

These days the senders seem to be made out of really thin wire that may have less wear resistance than the thicker stuff of old. I’d go as far as to say that in todays context they may not be as durable as they should be.

If it is indeed the sender (and not the wire from the sender to whichever module does the calculations, ECU, BCM, cluster?) then for it to fail within 6 years or 23,000kms would definitely mean it’s not durable in my view. As such I‘d consider it a failure to meet the durability requirements of ACL statutory warranty (and for some a failure while under a factory warranty as some 2017 year VF’s got a 7 year factory warranty).

I‘d definitely be putting it to the selling dealer that this failure should be repaired gratis under either Holdens good will (considering many of the latter VF‘s had a 7 year warranty) or repaired gratis under your ACL statutory warranty rights. They can choose which

PS: I’d have thought a fuel level sender wouldn’t cause a check engine lamp to light up. You may have other issues at play than just a faulty fuel sender (which shouldn't occur on such a young 23,000km old well maintained car).

You’ll have to have some basic things done like read the DTC’s and actually do some diagnostics to determine what’s really going on with the car. But the dealer will want to charge you for it though it should be part of the statutory warranty claim since such faults just shouldn’t occur on such a low mileage car (where 23,000kms equates to 1 & 1/2 years of wear and tear)…

PPS: Further to the above, the workshop manual states that the primary and secondary fuel level sensor restistances are measured by the ECM which calculates the fuel level percentage and sends this info to the instrument cluster as serial data.

The ECM monitors sensor signal performance (within expected range), shorts to ground, shorts to voltage and high and low restistance. Fuel level sensor faults are P0461, P0462, P0460, P0464, P2066, P2067 & P2658 which are type B DTC's that result in setting the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp or check engine lamp to most)...

As well as setting the MIL, these DTC's also result in the instrument cluster seting the fuel gauge to show empty and setting the low fuel indicator lamp to on...

 

[07GTS]

Yes, stuff can wear out but old 60’s cars had fuel senders that lasted for many many decades and 100’s of 1000’s of kms… In essence, back then they were a life of vehicle component (partly because they were more robust and partly because cars back then evaporated away because of rust…


It should be the case that the part should last the life of the vehicle especially considering how it’s been packaged (making replacement silly expensive).

These days the senders seem to be made out of really thin wire that may have less wear resistance than the thicker stuff of old. I’d go as far as to say that in todays context they may not be as durable as they should be.

thats why we recommend contactless senders for boats as they are bobbing around constantly and wear out the arm style alot quicker, car manufactures need a spare parts department so cant make things too good

 

[SSteve]

Yes, stuff can wear out but old 60’s cars had fuel senders that lasted for many many decades and 100’s of 1000’s of kms… In essence, back then they were a life of vehicle component (partly because they were more robust and partly because cars back then evaporated away because of rust…


It should be the case that the part should last the life of the vehicle especially considering how it’s been packaged (making replacement silly expensive).

These days the senders seem to be made out of really thin wire that may have less wear resistance than the thicker stuff of old. I’d go as far as to say that in todays context they may not be as durable as they should be.

If it is indeed the sender (and not the wire from the sender to whichever module does the calculations, ECU, BCM, cluster?) then for it to fail within 6 years or 23,000kms would definitely mean it’s not durable in my view. As such I‘d consider it a failure to meet the durability requirements of ACL statutory warranty (and for some a failure while under a factory warranty as some 2017 year VF’s got a 7 year factory warranty).

I‘d definitely be putting it to the selling dealer that this failure should be repaired gratis under either Holdens good will (considering many of the latter VF‘s had a 7 year warranty) or repaired gratis under your ACL statutory warranty rights. They can choose which

PS: I’d have thought a fuel level sender wouldn’t cause a check engine lamp to light up. You may have other issues at play than just a faulty fuel sender (which shouldn't occur on such a young 23,000km old well maintained car).

You’ll have to have some basic things done like read the DTC’s and actually do some diagnostics to determine what’s really going on with the car. But the dealer will want to charge you for it though it should be part of the statutory warranty claim since such faults just shouldn’t occur on such a low mileage car (where 23,000kms equates to 1 & 1/2 years of wear and tear)…

PPS: Further to the above, the workshop manual states that the primary and secondary fuel level sensor restistances are measured by the ECM which calculates the fuel level percentage and sends this info to the instrument cluster as serial data.

The ECM monitors sensor signal performance (within expected range), shorts to ground, shorts to voltage and high and low restistance. Fuel level sensor faults are P0461, P0462, P0460, P0464, P2066, P2067 & P2658 which are type B DTC's that result in setting the MIL (Malfunction Indicator Lamp or check engine lamp to most)...

As well as setting the MIL, these DTC's also result in the instrument cluster seting the fuel gauge to show empty and setting the low fuel indicator lamp to on...

Thanks @Skylarking, appreciate the info. I have a ScanGauge in my Prado… I’ll plug her in the SS and do scan of codes when I get the chance (away with work atm) and put it in the chat here. Tbh, I’m really disappointed and have not looked at the car since the fault happened last Friday.

Some additional info on how I the fault displayed itself…
While driving, noticed empty fuel gauge and sh1t myself thinking it was actual empty, did a u turn for the servo and the gauge popped back to a 3rd full. Continued on driving and gauge went to empty again.
Decided to fill up tank anyway, thinking that a full tank my ‘unstick’ a sticky gauge! Started car and gauge didn’t move of empty and check engine light came on. No low fuel light is displayed . DTE indicates “- -“ kms to empty.

ps l’ll make sure l have your post open so I can remind myself and quote my ACL rights. Thankyou

 

[krusing]

I recently had a neighbour call in and asked if I could scan his VE SSV as it wouldn’t start.
MIL was possibly activated, but couldn’t see it, as it wouldn't run,
But came up as fuel pump fault, with the ignition on.
Car has only done 87,000 k’s
(Being it’s only been a weekend car)
I was a bit surprised it had failed with that low k’s,
I guess it’s not the k’s in this case,
it’s the age, I believe he keeps it over 1/2 full all the time.

 

[Skylarking]

thats why we recommend contactless senders for boats as they are bobbing around constantly and wear out the arm style alot quicker, car manufactures need a spare parts department so cant make things too good

Many sensors within a vehicle should be contactless, fuel sender, accelerator position sensor, throttle position sensor and such… But as you say, manufacturers can make a killing from spare parts.

If owners fought back and asserted their legal rights for remedy, manufacturers may start to see it’s not worth producing high priced shite that goes faulty and breaks the product.

Interestingly, such problematic analogue methods are used in other industries like gaming. Their shorty joysticks were annoying enough that one chap fixed the problem and released it to the world…

Using hall effects (or even optics) seems like a solution for some use cases that should be adopted more widely within the automotive world (rather than the cruddy analogue sliders and such)… But circuits living in a solvent like petrol adds some complexities into the mix which obviously can be solved if boats use contactless level senders)

 

[07GTS]

Many sensors within a vehicle should be contactless, fuel sender, accelerator position sensor, throttle position sensor and such… But as you say, manufacturers can make a killing from spare parts.

If owners fought back and asserted their legal rights for remedy, manufacturers may start to see it’s not worth producing high priced shite that goes faulty and breaks the product.

Interestingly, such problematic analogue methods are used in other industries like gaming. Their shorty joysticks were annoying enough that one chap fixed the problem and released it to the world…

Using hall effects (or even optics) seems like a solution for some use cases that should be adopted more widely within the automotive world (rather than the cruddy analogue sliders and such)… But circuits living in a solvent like petrol adds some complexities into the mix which obviously can be solved if boats use contactless level senders)

even back in the ford XD fuel sender used the fuel itself to join the circuit for the fuel level so no moving parts at all, then after went back to the contact type which are still used today, have to wonder sometimes but prob just to get more money with the wearing parts after warranty finishes

 

[Skylarking]

even back in the ford XD fuel sender used the fuel itself to join the circuit for the fuel level so no moving parts at all, then after went back to the contact type which are still used today, have to wonder sometimes but prob just to get more money with the wearing parts after warranty finishes

There are also ultrasonic fuel level sensors that have programable resistance outputs which allow using them as direct replacements for the resistance slider float type sensors. Some are more easily programable than others…

https://www.amazon.com.au/ELING-Ultrasonic-Monitoring-Non-Contact-Detection/dp/B09GK4YVY1

Not sure how reliable ultrasonic sensors are and whether they’d last much longer than the old simple (thick wire) resistive sliders…

Plenty ways to do it but car manufacturers seem to only consider what’s good for them while raping us on price.

Meh… ssdd…