The Super Duper Timing Chain Thread!

[Skaa]

Iv turned my engine over x15 too many times tryna get all the timing marks to line up again. I’m not 100% sure was gonna double check it after a few turns.
Is there an easier way to check timing is spot on or does need to be pulled off and redone. Rookie error. Don’t feel up to pulling it down again if timings out a tooth

 

[teamkaos]

Hi all,

2013 VE SV6 Sportswagon with the LFX motor. MIL on at 113,000km with codes P0016 thru to P0019. Variable cam timing not activating. Got a MACE ENG cam chain and gears kit and did the swap myself, took me a week's worth of nights to do it. MIL lamp out, another 7,000km of troublefree motoring. Now at 120,000km the MIL is back on, all 4 codes showing and variable cam timing non-operable.
After talking to MACE, who have been helpful if slightly reluctant to admit any kind of fault (fair enough, who would), it looks like actually the real issue is the reluctor wheel on the crank has probably slipped. Apparently this is more common than you'd think as GM in their infinite wisdom made it a press fit on the crank, not keyed on. The computer is comparing the cam timing to the crank timing (which is off because of the moved wheel) and therefore throwing repeated codes. Originally I suspect the wheel slipped slightly, and with the old slightly stretched chains was enough to throw the codes. I replaced the chains, bought the timing back into spec but now the wheel has continued to slip. There's no way I think a new set of OEM chains would stretch in 7000km. I was pretty bloody careful in doing it, and 7000km of no issues says I did do it right.
I'm strapped as for cash so Holden fixing it is out, nor other mechanics. I'm quite capable, a toolmaker by trade and I've worked on engines both car and bike. Done head gaskets, top end rebuilds etc all in the garage. So I need to have a crack at sorting it myself.
Holden have told me they can inspect it, re-time the reluctor wheel in situ if it's not too far out and then TIG weld the reluctor wheel in place on the crankshaft.
Now, a few q's:
1 - Is it possible to drop the sump on the LFX engine to inspect the reluctor wheel without dropping subframe?
2 - What's the consensus on affect of TIGing the wheel on crankshaft/engine balance?
3 - Has anybody heard of or done this?

If I can inspect and correct it myself I'll try it, otherwise it's pull the motor and pull the crankshaft out and replace it properly which I'd rather avoid..

 

[VTS5]

If the reluctor wheel has moved, this may be caused by a too-small-diameter rear crankshaft reluctor wheel journal surface that does not provide enough of an interference fit with the wheel. While aftermarket reluctor wheel removal/installation/indexing tools are available, if the journal diameter is insufficient, relocating the wheel will not succeed, necessitating crankshaft replacement.

Do not attempt to relocate and spot-weld the reluctor wheel. This can result in both an imbalance condition as well as a warped reluctor wheel.

 

[blackve76]

I'll dread the day if and when I have this issue with stretched chains.
I wonder whats the parentage (0 to 100%) that can get to 300,000 k's without having stretched chains. The trouble is I might change the oil very regular like about 5000K or less with Penrite but what did the previous owner do. For me I normally do 4000K's in one year on one of our cars so I change the Oil at 12 months

12/09 Berlina 232000kms all original chains small rattle at start up but runs great no oil burn/ leaks.

 

[teamkaos]

Do not attempt to relocate and spot-weld the reluctor wheel. This can result in both an imbalance condition as well as a warped reluctor wheel.

Yeah - I've seen that quote on this pagehttps://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/92407/reluctor-wheel-movement
That article states a measure of correct alignment with photos.
That's my main worry - imbalance. I was thinking of attempting to spot drill 2 places on either side of the reluctor wheel where it meets the journal, then fill that with weld. The idea being even removal and replacement of metal with minimal heat transfer and warpage on the crank/reluctor wheel.
My Haines manual states 0.7mm run-out allowed on the reluctor wheel - that's quite a bit.

The whole thing sucks but I can't afford a new crank..

 

[VFSV6FORME]

A QUESTION FOR ALL TO KNOW

Since I have had my VE SV6 with a LEO Engine I have rattle on start up manly, wee all the time if I LEAVE THE CAR/ENGINE OFF FOR 1 Week or more. Now if I start the Engine every day or two or 3 or even the 4 day it ok and have no rattle under the bonnet be yesterday after leaving the car still for 8 days then I started it with the Bonnet open, with the Engine coves off I heard a hell of a racket and it sound like the chain hitting Aluminum BUT ONLY FOR 2 to 2.5 Second and after this it was fine.
NOW The Question!
Does anyone have experience with the chain tensioner? Yes that thing that give the chain the tension that is needed. Now I have seen video on Chain replacement and when the tensioner is fitted the guy pulls that pin out that allows the tensioner to put presser on the chain and I see that it cannot go back to the Original position before you pull that pin out not unless you take it out and do something to it. Now what happens if you have a Chain tensioner in your car that does go back but itself after few days as the car was resting that give you a sloppy chain and then you start the car, it rattles it head off and after you have oil pressure ( 2 or 3 seconds) its goes quite. Is it possible to have a tensioner that is slightly defective that does this and goes back to original new position before you pull that pin out after the engine has been resting for week or so. Now my bly VE is like this and at the same time my red Omega is fine and has 60,000 k more on the clock and youcan leave the engine off for two weeks and it starts ok.

 

[VFSV6FORME]

12/09 Berlina 232000kms all original chains small rattle at start up but runs great no oil burn/ leaks.

Tell me, When your V6 rattles on start up does it do it every time you start the car, or the first thing in the morning or the first start for that day, or the first thing if you start the car ever 2 days of 4 days or weekly. Which one of these does it do. (PS testing mine this week)

 

[teamkaos]

Yeah - I've seen that quote on this pagehttps://www.autoserviceprofessional.com/article/92407/reluctor-wheel-movement
That article states a measure of correct alignment with photos.
That's my main worry - imbalance. I was thinking of attempting to spot drill 2 places on either side of the reluctor wheel where it meets the journal, then fill that with weld. The idea being even removal and replacement of metal with minimal heat transfer and warpage on the crank/reluctor wheel.
My Haines manual states 0.7mm run-out allowed on the reluctor wheel - that's quite a bit.

The whole thing sucks but I can't afford a new crank..

So I used a bore scope and had a look through the Crank angle sensor hole - yup, confirmed, it's the reluctor wheel. It's about a tooth and half out of position. I then dropped the sump off the motor (you can do this with the motor in the car, the hardest bit for any home mechanic is pulling off the harmonic balancer). I can see the reluctor wheel so first order of business is to see if I can drive it back around into position, then see if I can get someone to TIG it in place to the crank. If no-one is keen to do that, I'll have to drill and tap it and put in a grub screw, which will be a prick to do with the motor in the car. It'd be easier if the gearbox was out, but that's almost as much work as pulling the motor from what I can see, and I'm limited to axle stands and a trolley jack - I think that 5L60E box is bloody heavy..

 

[blackve76]

Tell me, When your V6 rattles on start up does it do it every time you start the car, or the first thing in the morning or the first start for that day, or the first thing if you start the car ever 2 days of 4 days or weekly. Which one of these does it do. (PS testing mine this week)

Just when dead cold first start of the day, any warmth in engine it's fine. Like tappets on the old Holden six

 

[VFSV6FORME]

Just when dead cold first start of the day, any warmth in engine it's fine. Like tappets on the old Holden six

OK your car does it for the first start of the day. My VE 2008 seems to be ok if i let the car still for up to 2 days other wise on the third day it rattles for the first 2 or 2 1/2 seconds (not even 3 seconds). What do you think? Are your tensioneres retracting when the engine is off for a day or so so when you start the engine OIL pressure forces the tensioner out to stop the rattle. What I was tolds the Tensioners are not to retrace but only go forward when the chain wears but if this is true my car your car might have retracting tensioners because as soon as I get OIL PRESSURE the noise is gone after 2 to 2 1/2 seconds (That quick)
Someone with more experience that know these V6 engines in and out would give more input on this as looking a Youtube video one Engine Expert showed a NEW V6 (he was dress with a White gown) how to replace the timing chain and did deliberately actuated the tensioner out and he had to take it off the engine and manually with a trick wind it back in. No doubt our one's with ware they are going in by itself and when you start the car they the tensioners and the device that slides on the chain are force back to the chain.

I would like a expert on this to knowledge this or tell me I'm wrong.