VE SSV Redline - Cold Start Issues

[Patrick_John27]

Wondering if you worked out what the problem was or not because I am experiencing the same problem with mine atm

 

[MYVESSV8]

the positive post is the red one in the engine bay, comes from battery to this and then under the motor to starter
maybe an injector dribbling into cylinder, excess fuel at start- engine stumble then all good, O2 sensor bit sooted but once going all good
O2 sensors don't like some of the injector cleaners

 

[scrano]

No solution yet Patrick John27 unfortunately, and I've had it back in the mechanics, and they've tried specifically to find the cause, and even connected their scan tool up on a cold start to see if it fixed it, but still no good. They even cleaned the MAF sensor, as well as the throttle body, just for good measure, and the next morning it was the same.

I rang my local Holden dealer and went over the problem with them, and told them that I had the GM part number, and the software version, and I wanted too know if there had been any sort of firmware update for either the ECU or BCM that might address the issue, because it's my gut feeling that it's the battery drain issue that was effecting certain VE's with ICP controller not closing down properly after 10 minutes of the car being turned off, and they put someone on the phone that said that they'd need the car to determine for themselves if there was an update of any sorts to fix the issue, but what really pissed me off is when they said that they couldn't tell me if there was any sort of software update at all, even though I had all of the relevant information that they needed, and they said that regardless of whether it's a factory issue or not, that I'd at the very least be up for approximately $115 for an hour of shop labour, just so they could put it on their own scan tool, and then I could be up for whatever other charges that they deem necessary on top of that, and when I questioned whether I'd need to pay for shop labour if it's a recall to fix an issue that they had, the answer was that I'd at least be up for shop labour, and that still may not find the problem.

This guy was coming up with all sorts of what he called potential causes, and I can't see how a corroded terminal on a starter motor, or any of the other crap he mentioned would potentially cause battery drain issues, because I've been checking in engineering mode, and my battery went from brand new a couple of weeks ago, and reading as being 96% charged a week after it was fitted, to reading as being only 77% charged a week later, even though the engineering mode display is showing that the battery is 14.6-14.7volts whilst the car is running.

It just all doesn't add up, and sounds as though my Holden dealer is just trying to milk me for whatever they can

 

[Nitro_X]

Hmm, I hope I didn't give you a bum steer that a Holden service workshop would willingly advise over the phone if you had the latest software version.
Although, technically speaking, I can't see why it wouldn't be possible for them to do so, after you provide them with the relevant information.
Possibly they are very protective of certain servicing procedures and workshop revenue streams.
Every time I take my car in for service they try to up-sell or advise on additional non urgent work. Not that this is necessarily ...bad...but they do make more money on selling extra parts or accessories (plus additional labour charges).
For example, this week I had a general service done, they then advised that the drive belt (alternator/air-con) was showing signs of wear/stress and needed replacement, I thought, hmm, it's a 2007 model car and it's probably the original belt, so I said yeah, go ahead (extra $140) but asked that they keep the old one so I could inspect it. When the service was completed and they were doing up the invoice, I was advised that the drive belt didn't actually need replacement....hmmm...ok?
Inspecting the belt later myself, through the top of the engine bay with a torch didn't show any obvious problems...makes you wonder sometimes about their workshop motivations.

Anyway, I should clarify the process I went through regarding software.

July 2014 I booked for a general service.
Prior to this I had fitted a K&N high flow air filter into the standard air box to replace the factory one, after that the engine check light came on.
I decided this probably wouldn't cause any issues, thinking the ECU needed to adjust for the extra air flow and continued to drive the car without any problem other than the engine check light coming on consistently, if fact, the cars performance improved slightly including marginally better fuel economy (over time, by about 0.5L/100km). However, the engine check light never disappeared but the car ran fine without issue.
So during this service, the tech noted the engine check light and did a code scan, they contacted me to advise of the DTC and that it was to do with the "mass air flow sensor circuit"....I was already aware of this as I'd used a scan tool myself and noted
DTC: P0101 and researched this to be, Mass Air Flow Sensor Circuit - Out Of Range.
They told me they could do a "software update" to "see if it fixed the problem" but would cost me $130 extra, so I asked if they were confident this software update would definitely fix the DTC issue and they said they'd "have to try it to find out".....I declined the software update.

Fast forward to this year and I start having this random issue with the traction control switching itself off/on continually, while driving, producing the usual beep and dash warning (annoying but necessary process). Anyway, I was concerned because I couldn't trust if the traction control was going to work if I needed it so took it to two different workshops for diagnosis but neither could confidently pinpoint the cause and needed more time to figure it out.
Thinking this might cost me a fair bit of money I remembered Holden service mention of a software update, now to be clear, they didn't say whether or not I had an outdated version number or whether or not they could install the latest version, just simply that they "recommended" an update.
I thought, well, for $130 it was worth a shot, believing that its probable my cars ECU would be more reliable and perform better with a software update.

Result: The update resolved both issues. The MAF sensor circuit DTC and the traction control issue.

Update time: October 2015
Current Software Version: 013.015.097
GM Part # 92204362 (no idea what this refers too, it was listed in the engineering mode menu)



.

 

[Nitro_X]

Wondering if a different approach might be worth trying.

Maybe pop in to your Holden dealership personally and have a direct chat, let them know you are willing to pay for a software update if they can confirm over the counter whether or not you have the latest version for your vehicle model and year of manufacture.
Alternatively, wait until your next service is due and try them. (which obviously may delay the process)

When they advised me, it was during a routine service and they did not charge me any extra labour to tell me they "recommended" a software update but that they would charge extra to apply the update.

*I've found my local dealerships customer service staff and techs very accommodating when approached in the right way.

 

[scrano]

Yeah I hate to say it, but our local Holden dealer is driven purely by money seemingly, and they were exactly the same with the last owners as well, and I get the very distinct impression that they could tell me whether there's a software update or not, just that they want the money that they'd charge me for an hours labour in the workshop, and I did quiz them that if there was an update that did address this issue, whether they'd still charge me if it was a factory related fault, and all they said was that they may only charge me for workshop labour, but more than likely I'd be charged for anything and everything that they did, including any sort of software update, even if it was a factory issue, so basically unless it was a complete recall, where the government or some sort of consumer advice body was involved, that I'd be flat out of luck, and I'd be paying for whatever they saw fit, and hopefully it'd fix it.

Pretty bloody sketchy if you ask me.

Here's a funny story, I jumped in the car last night, bcoz I'd decided to go for a nice long drive, just on the off chance that the ECU might remap itself to handle the new battery that I had fitted the other week, as well as possibly adjusting any sort of fuel mix issues, or anything like that, that on older model cars you just sometimes had to take them out for a decent drive and open them up so the ECU really went to work, and the engine was allowed to breath (so to speak).

Oddly enough I hopped in the car last night and started it in engineering mode, and the battery was only showing as being 47.8% charged, which given that its a new 750 cca battery that was only fitted a couple of weeks ago, and that just over a week ago the battery charge was reading at 96%, then to drop to 47.8% in a little over a week is a massive swing (even though the battery voltage is reading anywhere between 14.1 and 14.6 volts whilst driving around, so how it could actually be losing charge has got me stumped).

Anyways the drive I went on last night was roughly a 2 hour round trip, and the battery charge lifted to about 57.8% during that time, which is decent increase, but not that much considering its a brand new battery.

When I got home last night I cleaned the car, and then took it and parked it, and then this morning at around 11:00am I decided to see how it performed when I started it cold, and surprisingly it fired up perfectly, not a sputter, not a hesitation, or anything, but I'm not thinking that it's fixed the problem yet, bcoz until I start the engine cold over 3 or 4 days, then I won't be convinced that it was anything other than an incident, but I'll keep reporting here what it's doing in the mornings on a cold start, and see whether by pure luck I've fixed it, or if I've just temporarily stopped what was going on

 

[Nitro_X]

Ok, that's interesting, yes, let us know how it goes.

Regards the battery issue.
It should not have dropped to 48%.
The 14.1V - 14.6V is the battery "charge voltage" from the alternator, this moves up and down via the program within the ECU, this is normal.

After a two hour drive though, I would expect the battery charge to have risen higher than 57% because the battery energy is not used while the engine is running, all the electrical power for the vehicles systems is supplied via the alternator, which also provides a charge current to top up the battery (if/when required).

It appears there is a problem with the charging system on your car, and possibly a battery drain issue when the vehicle is not running.
There are many articles/stories relating to battery drain on the VE and Holden are aware of this issue.
There's a few threads on this forum about the issue also.

I haven't had any problems with this myself (thankfully) but others here may be able to point you in the right direction.

You can also contact Holden directly to check for recalls here:
(scroll down the page a little and click on "Does my car have any outstanding recalls?")

Customer Care - Ownership & Servicing

 

[scrano]

That's exactly what I told the Holden technician/mechanic at our local dealership when I rang him about it, and I explained that it's a well known fault, and became that big of an issue that Holden had to release software updates to address the issue, and I even explained that on earlier model VE's that it due specifically to the electronics in the cars not shutting down correctly after 10 minutes of the car being being locked, and he said "no it won't be that because yours is a 2011 model, and by then that issue was fixed", and when I replied "but yeah there's a very similar problem that causing the same sort of problem even on some of the very latest VE's", he still tried to blow it off, and I said some of these guys that are providing this information are actually Holden technicians on the Just Commodores forum, and I even told him about the drop in battery charge, and how the car was reading that voltage was in the correct range, and that battery charge was dropping dramatically (even though I'd told him at that time that the battery charge had dropped from 96% to 77% in just under a week), he still tried to say that it pretty normal for a VE battery charge to read that low, and that because of the charge cycle that they fluctuated a fair bit, but he still blew it off as though there wasn't a problem that any idiot could've worked out.

I thought it was really strange that charge level only increased 10% on a drive of that distance as well, which is one of the reasons I did it, because I wanted to see if ECU would remap itself at all to adjust the way the battery was charging or anything, and I was really surprised this morning when it just started so easy, but like you said Nitro X it seems like there's an issue with the way the battery recharging system is functioning, and it seems as though it's the same issue that Holden are already aware of.

If I've gotta take it to a Holden dealership to be corrected for something that was a factory problem that Holden are already aware of, and have actually released fixes for, then I'll be finding every article, every Web page, and any forum link that I can find that proves that Holden knew about it, released a fix for it, or repaired it, and I'll be calling every consumer advocacy authority that I can think of to report my Holden dealers attitude towards something that Holden have been addressing with other owners, and not charging them through the nose for things like workshop labour, especially if they know exactly what's doing it

 

[Nitro_X]

Yeah man, I can understand your frustration.
I'd be giving the Holden customer service recall number a call.

My car is an MY2007 and I had a new battery fitted by my local Holden dealership over 2 years ago (12-7-2012)

Even before my recent software update (October 2015) I never saw the battery charge drop below 94%, it currently sits around 96%

I've only done one long distance run in that time of 1000 k's return, the rest is just regular urban driving.

 

[Tony310864]

May I suggest charging the battery with a battery charger and seeing what the effect is on the indicated charge and how long it takes to discharge.

Tony.