VE SSV Redline - Cold Start Issues

[PNR51]

I put a charger on the battery yesterday and it said charge was low. Charged until it said it was full yet dash said it was only 71%, but unlike your car, the charge percentage is consistent (i think its a true reading). Anyway going to replace the battery tomorrow and Ill let you know if that resolves the problem. If so, maybe you got a dodgy new battery? Ill let you know how it goes. FYI mine only has 30,000klm and has been remote tuned as well as exhaust system, headers, cats, CAI. I personally think the only mechanical issue it could be is either dribbling injectors (in which case there would be some black smoke on startup), or perhaps a fuel pressure problem (fuel drains back to tank when sitting for long period and the initial fuel pump prime on ignition before starting doesnt bring the fuel pressure in the rails high enough).

 

[scrano]

I put a charger on the battery yesterday and it said charge was low. Charged until it said it was full yet dash said it was only 71%, but unlike your car, the charge percentage is consistent (i think its a true reading). Anyway going to replace the battery tomorrow and Ill let you know if that resolves the problem. If so, maybe you got a dodgy new battery? Ill let you know how it goes. FYI mine only has 30,000klm and has been remote tuned as well as exhaust system, headers, cats, CAI. I personally think the only mechanical issue it could be is either dribbling injectors (in which case there would be some black smoke on startup), or perhaps a fuel pressure problem (fuel drains back to tank when sitting for long period and the initial fuel pump prime on ignition before starting doesnt bring the fuel pressure in the rails high enough).

Hopefully you're able to get to the bottom of your problems, because I've just done a cold start on the last couple of days and the problem is still there, so I'm not sure what to do now that my mechanic, the Holden dealership, and also replacing the battery and I've done everything else I can possibly think of, so maybe it is something like dribbling injectors, or a fuel pressure problem, but you'd think that between 2 different mechanics (1 of them being a Holden dealership), that they'd manage to get it all sorted out, but like I think that I've said before, my local Holden dealership hasn't exactly got the best reputation for stellar workmanship, and given that it was in there right before New Years maybe they just did a rush job (even though they had it all day), and you'd think that if there was a problem with fuel pressure, or even dribbling injectors, that it'd cause some sort of misfire from either too much fuel on startup causing the plugs to become a little bit wet, or if the fuel is running back into the tank, that there'd be a misfire caused by there not being enough fuel available as the car starts up. Anyways you'd think that there'd be some sort of misfire reported, and according to the report I got from them, there were no misfires reported.

My mechanic did think that it might've been a dud battery himself I think after I showed him screenshots of the charge levels and battery voltage in engineering mode, and just how much it was fluctuating, but he performed a battery test with his own equipment, and the battery reported as being fine.

It's really got me stumped, bcoz I just want it solved, and it's just a constant headache

I hope that you have better luck mate, and let me know if you get to the bottom of what's going on with yours

 

[Nitro_X]

scrano, did the Holden tech check for any software update when you left it in their shop?
Did you check with Holden customer care regarding recalls?

 

[Nitro_X]

PNR51
It's possible your battery is ok, you just need to drive the car more so the system can maintain the battery properly :idea3:
But it won't hurt to replace a 3+ year old battery

Did you disconnect the battery to charge it?
Is your charger a smart charger, VE's use a calcium battery and have different charge requirements to traditional lead acid batteries.

These vehicles also have very sophisticated on board electrical power management & charging systems.

 

[PNR51]

Hi Nitro-X,

I have driven around 4 X 2 hour drives (1 hour continuous each way) over the past week, and the most the charge goes up to is 71%. Got back late sat night and didnt use car today and charge was back down to 66%. The interesting thing is when engine isnt running battery voltage is reading 11.5-11.7 volts in eng mode yet if you put a multimeter across the battery terminals its reading 12.3 volts (also checked battery voltage across jump start posts in engine bay and reading was still 12.3 volts). Anyway I think I should replace battery either way even if it doesnt fix the problem, but any additional help would be welcomed with open ears!

Scrano, I have ruled out fuel pressure leak back and dribbling injectors.
Fuel pressure leak back, without checking a fuel pressure figure, when the engine was hot I simply relieved all the pressure by depressing the schrodter valve on the front of the left hand fuel rail (remove black screw cap and use a small allen key to push on internal valve till the pressure is released). I then turned on ignition so the pump primes and stops, then start car and see if the problem is there (even though its hot). This essentially replicates what would happen if the pressure had dropped to zero overnight and you started the car in the morning... and bang the car started fine. Even left it for 16 hours after stopping and checked to see if there was any residual pressure in the rail, and there was and then started car and cold start stutter was there. At the same time I checked exhaust for any signs of smoke when the car stuttered and farted for a couple of seconds and nothing. So I dont think either of those is the issue. This leads me back to something electronic. It only happens after car sits for 10+ hours, and I dont think it has anything to even do with it being cold (start car after sitting, stutters, pick up, stop it straight away, start it ten minutes later, starts perfectly). Hopefully will get time to pick up a new battery tomorrow and try it. Next step off to holden, but they will prob blame the engine mods and tune as the car is still under warranty. Next thing would be another tune...

 

[07GTS]

the cold start fueling is based on how long the engine has been off for so the longer it sits it goes to a different fueling cell max time is 12 hours, then if u start the engine and it runs and then u stop it and try again it will be reset and start from zero sec again then when started it will choose the cell for that ECT/OFF TIME range so totally different fueling requirement, if u know the hours it sits when it has the issue just let the tuner know so they can look at that time frame in the cold start areas and see if anything is odd there, or better if u can try after 9 hours still starts fine and then 10 hours its bad then it narrows it down to a small time frame to look at, this table isnt usually modified much tho so could still be stock unless the tuner has changed it for some reason, just thought its worth a mention

 

[scrano]

scrano, did the Holden tech check for any software update when you left it in their shop?
Did you check with Holden customer care regarding recalls?

Hey Nitro X, I did specifically ask them to check for any sort of software update, or any sort of recall when I took it in there, and it's got that on the job sheet that I'd asked for them to check for software update (well it just says "please check software", but I spoke to the mechanic that was going to be working on the car, and told him direct that I wanted that checked, and he said he would, and when I picked it up he said that there were no updates, even though it doesn't even have it listed on the job sheet that he actually checked)

Given that this particular dealer hasn't had the best track record with workshop performance, and I know from a family member that used to work in spare parts there that the service department were often getting into trouble for not doing simple things right, and I've got a few friends that I've seen some absolute horror stuff that they've done with their cars during things like a service, I really wanted to contact Holden Customer Care and confirm with them whether there are any issues that I should have them checking for (because I was really hoping that they'd improved their service record since the last horror story I saw come out of there), but when I tried contacting Holden Customer Care through the website it kept on looping me back to having to book my car in to be checked by my local dealer, no matter what I was saying the problem was, so if anyone has an actual number where I can speak to them, then I'd appreciate it.

the cold start fueling is based on how long the engine has been off for so the longer it sits it goes to a different fueling cell max time is 12 hours, then if u start the engine and it runs and then u stop it and try again it will be reset and start from zero sec again then when started it will choose the cell for that ECT/OFF TIME range so totally different fueling requirement, if u know the hours it sits when it has the issue just let the tuner know so they can look at that time frame in the cold start areas and see if anything is odd there, or better if u can try after 9 hours still starts fine and then 10 hours its bad then it narrows it down to a small time frame to look at, this table isnt usually modified much tho so could still be stock unless the tuner has changed it for some reason, just thought its worth a mention

I actually wouldn't mind trying this 07GTS, and seeing if I can pin down exactly how many hours it is before it does it, and whether it's consistent, and also what PNR51 said about releasing the fuel pressure from the rails, and then seeing if the pump pressurizes the system again when I turn the key, or if I get that same flat response, because I know that when I took it for a 2 hour drive when I thought it was software related, and it not detecting what was going on correctly with the battery or something, the next 2 days on a cold start up it started absolutely fine, and I just turned it off and really didn't drive it that much, because I wanted to see how long it kept starting normally, and I think that it was either the 3rd or 4th day, and it returned to the same splutter as it started up.

It's really frustrating, and I'm not sure what else to do, but to just keep trying different things, and eliminating those as causes, because no one I've taken it to seems to know how to fix it, and I don't continually want to be paying to have it looked at

 

[PNR51]

the cold start fueling is based on how long the engine has been off for so the longer it sits it goes to a different fueling cell max time is 12 hours, then if u start the engine and it runs and then u stop it and try again it will be reset and start from zero sec again then when started it will choose the cell for that ECT/OFF TIME range so totally different fueling requirement, if u know the hours it sits when it has the issue just let the tuner know so they can look at that time frame in the cold start areas and see if anything is odd there, or better if u can try after 9 hours still starts fine and then 10 hours its bad then it narrows it down to a small time frame to look at, this table isnt usually modified much tho so could still be stock unless the tuner has changed it for some reason, just thought its worth a mention

Thats great info thanks 07GTS. I did have exactly the same problem (now that Ive looked at the history) during the remote tune process, but then it seemed to clear out during the process, but I think your onto it. I will contact the tuner and see what can be done.

Scrano, replaced battery today, voltage is higher reading, but still stuttered on start (sat for 11 hours), so I think it was starting to get a bit long in the tooth but hasnt fixed the problem. Ill let you know how I go with the tune.

 

[scrano]

Thats great info thanks 07GTS. I did have exactly the same problem (now that Ive looked at the history) during the remote tune process, but then it seemed to clear out during the process, but I think your onto it. I will contact the tuner and see what can be done.

Scrano, replaced battery today, voltage is higher reading, but still stuttered on start (sat for 11 hours), so I think it was starting to get a bit long in the tooth but hasnt fixed the problem. Ill let you know how I go with the tune.

PNR51, I did exactly the same as you did with releasing the pressure from the injector rails a couple of times, just to see whether it started up sluggish when it'd been sitting for an extended period, because fuel pressure was dropping from the rails, but just like you that doesn't seem to be my issue, so I've decided to follow 07GTS's advice, and see if I can pinpoint it down to a certain time frame that it's happening between, so I'm starting off with starting it, then letting it sit for 9 hours, and then testing it again.

I'm pretty sure that my car has never had a modified tune at all, so that setting should've never been modified, but I can't be certain, so it's just another thing that I can both pinpoint to a certain amount of hours that it's happening after, and just another possible cause that I can possibly eliminate, so I'll see how it goes

 

[scrano]

Just an update, I've followed 07GTS's advice and just seen whether I can narrow down after how many hours sitting cold will it sputter as it starts, and so far I've let it sit without starting it for 9 hours , and it started fine after sitting idle for 9 hours, so then I let it sit for 10 hours cold without touching it again, and it still started fine, and now I've done an 11 hour cold start and it still starts fine after sitting there idle for that long, and now I've tried 12 hours to see if I can pinpoint a time window where it's happening, and it's still starting fine, and beyond 12 hours I'm not sure how much longer to try and leave it sit, and I've started a case with Holden Customer Care after finally getting a number where i can speak to someone, because when I first tried contacting them it was through the Holden website, and it basically kept looping me back around and referring me to my local Holden dealer, which wasn't what I was wanting seeing as though they've already looked at the car.

I know a lot of people blame bad fuel with things like this, so I made a concious effort to not immediately blame fuel quality, especially when it was only doing it on a cold start each day, and then running fine for the remainder of each day, and this might just be weird coincidence, but even though I normally only ever fill up with 98 octane fuel, and I usually try and stick strictly to service stations where all of their equipment is new, lately I've been using a particular local BP servo after they upgraded all of their bowsers and added 98 octane fuel on all of their pumps (the odd thing is that me using this particular service station roughly coincides with when all of this started up, and the more I thought about it, even though they upgraded everything above ground, that everything below ground is still all essentially the same, and they might have caused some sort of contamination or something when they put the new pumps in, or just some sort of humidity is getting into their fuel tanks or something, so I just decided to switch back to the service station that I'd normally used, and filled up there, and it's after that when I've been doing these timed cold starts, and I would've thought that it would've definitely did it somewhere in that 9-12 hour range of sitting cold, and it hasn't done it once, and in fact has started perfectly, and I've now stretched it as far as 12 hours, and it still didn't sputter on a 12 hour cold start, and if it doesn't do it after that amount of time, then maybe it's a problem with the fuel at this particular servo, and it's generally alright in normal use, but after its sitting for a certain amount of time it's just causing enough of a problem to make that happen.

It's just odd that I've been trying to make that behavior repeat, and been very strict with how long I let it sit for (9, then 10, then 11, and next will be 12 hours), and I haven't been able to make it repeat, and the only thing that's really changed of any significance is that I've changed back to the service station that I used to use, so it's still running on 98 octane, just from a different servo.

I'm gonna be super pissed if it's all been because of bad fuel coming from that servo, and if that's what turns out to be the problem then I'll be ringing BP's head office and letting them have it, because that's just terrible, and could be causing people all sorts of problems like burned out fuel pumps and things like that (after all its already cost me hundreds of dollars and no one, including the local Holden dealer has a clue as to what's causing it), and literally the only thing that's changed since it was sputtering on a cold start and now, is that I've switched back from the BP servo that I'd been using to fill up with 98 octane fuel, back to the service station that I'd been using up until a month or 2 ago, and now I'm convinced that it is/was a crappy fuel supply, because I went from being able to repeat it without trying, to not being able to repeat it at all now with letting it sit for 9, 10, 11 and 12 hour stints.

I'm not sure why bad fuel would cause that behavior only on a cold start each day, and then be fine from there, and especially why it'd be happening with a premium fuel like 98 octane, and the only thing that I can think of is that of is that they've somehow messed things up when they fitted all of their new pumps and stuff. It's just crazy, because I would've thought when they replaced all of the equipment above ground, and ran a dedicated pump for 98 octane fuel to each of their bowsers, that they would've made sure everything was right where it hooks up underground, but it seems like they didn't, and it's really pissed me off, because I could've potentially fried a fuel pump or something like that all because of sh!ttty fuel from a company like BP. I feel like ringing them and just blasting them, and showing them how much they've cost me over sh!tty fuel