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No fuel gauge with check engine light

SSteve

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Thanks everyone. Let’s see what transpires today.
From what I can tell from their phone calls to me… the tank has been removed to access pump and filters to confirm diagnosis of fuel pump failure. Fuel contamination diagnosis from sight! I’m going to ask to see the pump. I also have my receipts from fuel purchases.
But IMO, car was fine until dealer touched it. The initial fault being a faulty fuel sender. Everything since has been caused by the dealer.

Exhaust flange loose
Damaged rear bar
Car stalling on FWY
Car being towed twice (home then dealer)
Fuel pump failure
Contaminated fuel
Injector replacement
Spark plug replacement

All of the above caused by incompetence of them getting in to replace the original fault - the fuel sender
 

Redline457

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Thanks everyone. Let’s see what transpires today.
From what I can tell from their phone calls to me… the tank has been removed to access pump and filters to confirm diagnosis of fuel pump failure. Fuel contamination diagnosis from sight! I’m going to ask to see the pump. I also have my receipts from fuel purchases.
But IMO, car was fine until dealer touched it. The initial fault being a faulty fuel sender. Everything since has been caused by the dealer.

Exhaust flange loose
Damaged rear bar
Car stalling on FWY
Car being towed twice (home then dealer)
Fuel pump failure
Contaminated fuel
Injector replacement
Spark plug replacement

All of the above caused by incompetence of them getting in to replace the original fault - the fuel sender
Hey SSteve, i see your from Melb. Which Holden stealaship so i know not to go there .
 

SSteve

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Update…Dealer is getting fuel analysis done. 5 business days turnaround.
I need them to prove to me how they didn’t cause the fuel contamination when tank was dropped out of car and left sitting there for 2 days while they waited for fuel sender.
Question for those who have removed the tank from a sedan…do you need to remove the fuel (30 litres) to do this? Or can you drop it with the fuel in it?
 

Skylarking

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Update…Dealer is getting fuel analysis done. 5 business days turnaround.
I need them to prove to me how they didn’t cause the fuel contamination when tank was dropped out of car and left sitting there for 2 days while they waited for fuel sender.
Question for those who have removed the tank from a sedan…do you need to remove the fuel (30 litres) to do this? Or can you drop it with the fuel in it?
Long post so sorry…

One thing that will kill the fuel pump is loss of flow due to debris within the tank blocking the in tank fuel filter while the pump is being commanded to pump fuel… Such causes the pump to overheat because of lack of fuel flow. The pump dies but there should be evidence of such crud within the tank and crud within the sock filter as well as evidence of pump overheating if the pump is dismantled.

Fuel pump voltage issues may also have similar overheating evidence to that of fuel starvation when a pump is dismantles. Such can occur when the fuel pump connector pin is dodgy as in the photo I posted. The only difference is that tne fuel in the tank won’t have crud within causing a blocked fuel filter.

Chemical (liquid) contamination, like paint stripper (yes it occurred), water, or too much alcohol won’t really kill the pump as it will still flow through the fluid which will cool the pump (unless the contamination turns the fuel to jelly but that’s easily seen). Such contamination would cause issues for the smooth running of your engine but the fuel condition is easily determined with a dealer fuel test kit (which can cost for $100 to $300 odd and almost all dealers would have in-house). One can even use a clean 2ltr bottle of coke which you fill up from the tank and then let sit for a while to see what condition it’s in, look for stratification or rubbish floating within. Bad fuel is generally easily determined in-house and uses little if any shop disposables.

Picking up a bad batch of fuel isn’t uncommon. So the question you should ask yourself is when did you last fill up before dropping the car off at the dealer. If it was some 200 or 300 kms before you dropped the car at the dealer, it’s not likely it’s a fuel issue ;) If you filled up the day before and have only done 20km, you may not yet know of the bad batch of fuel you bought:oops:

I really doubt that the dealer dropped the tank and crud fell into it during removal (unless your car is covered in mud and they were basically stupid careless). But even if stupid careless, i’d think they’d do something to fix their pooch screw as it’s easy to do when the tank is on the ground.

Can a dealer drop a full tank of fuel. Well with a car on a hoist you can unbolt an engine which is resting on a cart and then lift the car further up and roll the cart and the engine now sitting on it free and clear away, so yes a dealer with a hoist can do lots of stuff DIYers at home can’t Including dropping a tank full of fuel. But more than likely they’d just pump the fuel into other containers and make the job easier… if they do such, the question would be were the containers clean or was that where the contamination came from :eek:

Being that the tank was removed to fix the fuel sender, and it cost $1k? just for the removal and reinstallation, I’d have asked them to check the tank intervals and the fuel sock for debris and taken appropriate action to clean/replace stuff depending on what they found. In fact the a good dealer should have suggested such. And given that the connector pin is a known defect, you’d expect that the dealer would carefully inspect the connector whenever the ability to do so arrises.

Loosing trust with a dealer makes life hard but I’d hope going forward they’d fix the exhaust, diffuser and the other underlying issues they should have spotted (and you could have checked if they just discussed it with you at the time the tank was dropped). But who knows what happens when and if they get their back up… many businesses don’t like to own up to pooch screws.

Whatever the case, I doubt getting an off site fuel analysis would be helpful (since the dealer kit is generally enough for most fuel contamination issues and when listed on a dealer service invoice is enough for insurance companies to accept a claim). A full on fuel test requires a 5 litre sample and can cost around $1000 and can be useful in small claims court. So I wonder what type of fuel test they are doing an who’s going to pay for the test :oops:

Going forward I’d be playing my cards close to my chest and getting them to offer info on what they’ve been doing… Often they forget what they've said and walk themselves into an admission at which point you’ll have the, by the short and curlies.

But keep cool and realise it may have been bad fuel all along, if not the connector issue.

It’s sad hearing about your problems but it’s why I’ve started to service my car again after one dealer had the front tire at 10pm i after ticking ”checked tires and tire pressure” on the invoice and another dealer finished their work without tightening the brake lines on ten abs unit (leaving me with no brakes at the first traffic lights)…

Hope you get a good outcome and all issues are resolved without cost to you.
 

SSteve

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Long post so sorry…

One thing that will kill the fuel pump is loss of flow due to debris within the tank blocking the in tank fuel filter while the pump is being commanded to pump fuel… Such causes the pump to overheat because of lack of fuel flow. The pump dies but there should be evidence of such crud within the tank and crud within the sock filter as well as evidence of pump overheating if the pump is dismantled.

Fuel pump voltage issues may also have similar overheating evidence to that of fuel starvation when a pump is dismantles. Such can occur when the fuel pump connector pin is dodgy as in the photo I posted. The only difference is that tne fuel in the tank won’t have crud within causing a blocked fuel filter.

Chemical (liquid) contamination, like paint stripper (yes it occurred), water, or too much alcohol won’t really kill the pump as it will still flow through the fluid which will cool the pump (unless the contamination turns the fuel to jelly but that’s easily seen). Such contamination would cause issues for the smooth running of your engine but the fuel condition is easily determined with a dealer fuel test kit (which can cost for $100 to $300 odd and almost all dealers would have in-house). One can even use a clean 2ltr bottle of coke which you fill up from the tank and then let sit for a while to see what condition it’s in, look for stratification or rubbish floating within. Bad fuel is generally easily determined in-house and uses little if any shop disposables.

Picking up a bad batch of fuel isn’t uncommon. So the question you should ask yourself is when did you last fill up before dropping the car off at the dealer. If it was some 200 or 300 kms before you dropped the car at the dealer, it’s not likely it’s a fuel issue ;) If you filled up the day before and have only done 20km, you may not yet know of the bad batch of fuel you bought:oops:

I really doubt that the dealer dropped the tank and crud fell into it during removal (unless your car is covered in mud and they were basically stupid careless). But even if stupid careless, i’d think they’d do something to fix their pooch screw as it’s easy to do when the tank is on the ground.

Can a dealer drop a full tank of fuel. Well with a car on a hoist you can unbolt an engine which is resting on a cart and then lift the car further up and roll the cart and the engine now sitting on it free and clear away, so yes a dealer with a hoist can do lots of stuff DIYers at home can’t Including dropping a tank full of fuel. But more than likely they’d just pump the fuel into other containers and make the job easier… if they do such, the question would be were the containers clean or was that where the contamination came from :eek:

Being that the tank was removed to fix the fuel sender, and it cost $1k? just for the removal and reinstallation, I’d have asked them to check the tank intervals and the fuel sock for debris and taken appropriate action to clean/replace stuff depending on what they found. In fact the a good dealer should have suggested such. And given that the connector pin is a known defect, you’d expect that the dealer would carefully inspect the connector whenever the ability to do so arrises.

Loosing trust with a dealer makes life hard but I’d hope going forward they’d fix the exhaust, diffuser and the other underlying issues they should have spotted (and you could have checked if they just discussed it with you at the time the tank was dropped). But who knows what happens when and if they get their back up… many businesses don’t like to own up to pooch screws.

Whatever the case, I doubt getting an off site fuel analysis would be helpful (since the dealer kit is generally enough for most fuel contamination issues and when listed on a dealer service invoice is enough for insurance companies to accept a claim). A full on fuel test requires a 5 litre sample and can cost around $1000 and can be useful in small claims court. So I wonder what type of fuel test they are doing an who’s going to pay for the test :oops:

Going forward I’d be playing my cards close to my chest and getting them to offer info on what they’ve been doing… Often they forget what they've said and walk themselves into an admission at which point you’ll have the, by the short and curlies.

But keep cool and realise it may have been bad fuel all along, if not the connector issue.

It’s sad hearing about your problems but it’s why I’ve started to service my car again after one dealer had the front tire at 10pm i after ticking ”checked tires and tire pressure” on the invoice and another dealer finished their work without tightening the brake lines on ten abs unit (leaving me with no brakes at the first traffic lights)…

Hope you get a good outcome and all issues are resolved without cost to you.
Thanks @Skylarking, really appreciate the info and your efforts to provide it.
My homework today is to document on paper a time line of events of everything that has occurred from first symptom, to fuel purchases, to what the dealer has said and done etc.
 

SSteve

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So, finally got the fuel analysis results from the dealer. Results came back stating water in fuel.

Conclusion on the certificate of analysis…
Results were obtained on the sample as received. Visible particulates and suspended water negligible. Density is high. Water content is higher than typical. Distillation range is not typical of Unleaded petrol fuel where the recovery temperatures of distillation ranges from Initial Boiling Point to 90% are higher than typical value. All other results applicable to Australian Fuel Quality Standards Act 2020 for Automotive Unleaded Petrol Fuel are within specified limits. NATA Accreditation No. 825. Site No. 2024.

Pissed that I don’t know how water contaminated the fuel.
With all the incompetence from the dealer, how do I know that they didn’t contaminate the fuel when they opened the tank to atmosphere when replacing the sender unit?

Also, can the fuel pump actually fail with water contamination? wouldn’t the pump happily just pump away?

Holden want $3.5k to fix.

Suppose I‘ll try BP with the fuel receipts and the analysis report.
Or, my insurance

No other option but to pay if i have no joy with above.

So disappointing
 
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Skylarking

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So, finally got the fuel analysis results from the dealer. Results came back stating water in fuel.

Conclusion on the certificate of analysis…
Results were obtained on the sample as received. Visible particulates and suspended water negligible. Density is high. Water content is higher than typical. Distillation range is not typical of Unleaded petrol fuel where the recovery temperatures of distillation ranges from Initial Boiling Point to 90% are higher than typical value. All other results applicable to Australian Fuel Quality Standards Act 2020 for Automotive Unleaded Petrol Fuel are within specified limits. NATA Accreditation No. 825. Site No. 2024.

Pissed that I don’t know how water contaminated the fuel.
With all the incompetence from the dealer, how do I know that they didn’t contaminate the fuel when they opened the tank to atmosphere when replacing the sender unit?

Also, can the fuel pump actually fail with water contamination? wouldn’t the pump happily just pump away?

Holden want $3.5k to fix.

Suppose I‘ll try BP with the fuel receipts and the analysis report.
Or, my insurance

No other option but to pay if i have no joy with above.

So disappointing
I provided all fuel receipts, going back a considerable time, along with the dealer repair receipt to the retail fuel outlet i always used ... claim denied...

Provided the exact same docs to the insurance company and the malicious damage claim was accepted though they tried to get me to pay an excess. However i stated that according to the policy, if i identified the at fault party no excess was due. And the only reason i couldn't provide an at fault party drivers license was that the fuel outlet was bolted to the foundations and couldn't drive anywhere... the next day they accepted that i didn't have to pay excess...

Not all insurance companies accept fuel contamination claims...
 
Last edited:

SSteve

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Ok brains trust…what do we have here? These are the pics that Holden took of the tank and fuel pump.
They also reported DTC U0109 Fuel pump control module lost communication.
Any comments?
Holden want to…
drain and clean tank
replace both pumps and filters
replace fuel level sensor (again)
replace injectors
replace spark plugs
 

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Skylarking

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That fuel looks nasty and it doesn’t look like water contamination to me… but such is academic as the dealer has documented what they say is the failure and in essence given you a way out…

So I’d read your insurance policy and see if fuel contamination is a covered event. If so then ring the insurance company and confirm what’s written in your policy and lodge a claim. If it’s accepted, as it should be if it’s in the policy, I’d have them authorise the dealer to do all the work they recommend. Either the insurance will pay the dealer directly or as in my case I payed the dealer and the insurance reimbursed me.

But separately to insurance I’d ask the dealer to put all the old parts in a box and I’d keep them. why keep the old parts, because you should be able to home clean the injectors and fuel pump, etc and they will be ok as spares.

In my POs daily I’ve twice had my injectors cleaned post fuel contamination and they are still ok…

But don’t be surprised if an insurance assessor required they clean a lot of the parts and reuse them… It depends on what the contamination is… Just let them know that if the parts fail again you’d look towards the insurance company for resolution as the expert dealer stated replacement is required ;)
 
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