The gift that keeps on giving - service ESP warning

[chrisp]

Jumps up to 14-15v from memory..

It’ll jump up to about 15.5V for a short time. Calcium batteries (as used in the VE and VF) are prone to acid stratification (where the water and acid tend to seperate water to the top, and acid to the bottom). To counteract the stratification, the charging system is programmed to periodically gas the battery to agitate the acid/water mixture.

As an aside: This is also why you shouldn’t use a sealed battery in these vehicles. Sealed batteries are not designed to be ‘gassed’ and won’t tolerate it well. It’ll shorten the life of the battery and vent corrosive fumes in to the boot). The converse is true too - don’t use a calcium battery in a vehicle designed to use a sealed (VRLA) battery as it’ll suffer acid stratification and shorten its life. It is best to stick to the battery type that matches the vehicle’s charging system.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

It’ll jump up to about 15.5V for a short time. Calcium batteries (as used in the VE and VF) are prone to acid stratification (where the water and acid tend to seperate water to the top, and acid to the bottom). To counteract the stratification, the charging system is programmed to periodically gas the battery to agitate the acid/water mixture.

As an aside: This is also why you shouldn’t use a sealed battery in these vehicles. Sealed batteries are not designed to be ‘gassed’ and won’t tolerate it well. It’ll shorten the life of the battery and vent corrosive fumes in to the boot). The converse is true too - don’t use a calcium battery in a vehicle designed to use a sealed (VRLA) battery as it’ll suffer acid stratification and shorten its life. It is best to stick to the battery type that matches the vehicle’s charging system.

Mine is stock AcDelco
When it’s due to be replaced i will probably get the same from Holden

 

[Skylarking]

The VF workshop manual has a clear definition of how the charging is controlled. It’s not odd for a battery to be at 12.6v and when the car is started for the voltage to go to 15v.

I do agree stay with same battery chemistry that the manufacturer installed else you are asking for problems.

 

[abuch47]

optima is a no go then?

 

[chrisp]

optima is a no go then?

Optima are good batteries - spiral wound cells which were originally developed by ‘Gates’ and have a fantastic current delivery capacity (due to low internal impedance), but I wouldn’t use them in a VE or VF as the charging system isn’t compatible.

 

[Skylarking]

The VF workshop manual states the system will go into sulfation mode if the battery voltage is less than 13.2v for 45 minutes or system voltage is less than 12.56 volts. The process is for the BMC to enter charge mode for 2 to 3 minutes before determining what to mode to go into as a next step, dependant on voltage measurements.

The thing is, sulfation mode will cause battery gassing as the alternator is told to pump high current levels into the battery. This is not good for sealed batteries as mentioned. Optimat batteries are sealed so shouldn’t be used for this reason.

@chrisp is correct.

Thing I don’t quite understand is that sulfation will expel gas (Hydrogen & Oxygen) out the vent pipe. In older batteries you could easily access the cells to fill up the lost H & O with distilled water but that seems not the case on our VF’s.

 

[chrisp]

Thing I don’t quite understand is that sulfation will expel gas (Hydrogen & Oxygen) out the vent pipe. In older batteries you could easily access the cells to fill up the lost H & O with distilled water but that seems not the case on our VF’s.

I haven’t read the VF manual on the charging system so I can’t be sure of the terminology used by Holden. However, sulphation occurs when the battery is discharged. This doesn’t produce gas.

The gas (or gassing) occurs during charging when the voltage exceeds 2.45V per cell (or 14.7V for a “12 V” battery and, as you have pointed out, this results in water loss as the gas is essentially disassociated water.

The basis for a ‘low maintenance’ or a ‘maintenance free’ battery is to limit the water loss and contain (as much as possible) the water in the battery. These batteries tend to be ‘sealed’ (but they still have vents to release any excessive pressure if they are over charged). It is critical that the charging voltage is limited to below the gassing voltage (14.7V) to prevent the battery from venting and drying out (and shortening its life).

Some sealed batteries can be topped up but shouldn’t require it if they are treated properly. Some, such as AGM batteries, would be very difficult to top up in the field as the acid is contained in an ‘absorbent glass mat’ separator which looks and feels a bit like damp cardboard. It is difficult to add the water in away that it will mix uniformly throughout the battery.

So called calcium batteries (which are lead-acid batteries with some calcium added) are essentially a different approach to making a long-life battery. The calcium additive reduces the water loss of the battery, but makes it prone to acid stratification. The charging system needs to periodically condition the battery by doing a short gassing charge, but not do it too often as it will dry the battery out and negate the benefit of the calcium.

Batteries and their charging methods are optimised so that the water loss is so low that the battery is likely to wear out before it dries out.

 

[Skylarking]

Thanks @chrisp, I know a sulfation chemical reaction occurs within a battery and causes white crap on the plates which short them out and kill the battery with no gassing involved. This process is called sulfation.

I probably should have been a little clearer I meant sulphation mode as it’s called in the manual, in a somewhat inaccurate way, and why periodic fluid loss doesn’t occur (being that sulfation mode is simply a heavy charge for 2 to 3 minutes causing gassing and used to mix the stratified acid as you’ve stated).

Holden’s sulfation mode is very different to the sulfation modes that some smart float chargers perform by pulsing AC volts through a battery to remove the sulfation deposits and thus restore a partly dead battery.

Typical for different companies to use similar terms to define very different things

But thanks for clearing up that the Holden battery is sealed and can’t be topped up even though the battery is periodically gassed and some fluid loss may occur since Holden has provided a vent tube to get rid of the excess pressure the gassing causes.

 

[Anthony121]

Thanks @chrisp, I know a sulfation chemical reaction occurs within a battery and causes white crap on the plates which short them out and kill the battery with no gassing involved. This process is called sulfation.

I probably should have been a little clearer I meant sulphation mode as it’s called in the manual, in a somewhat inaccurate way, and why periodic fluid loss doesn’t occur (being that sulfation mode is simply a heavy charge for 2 to 3 minutes causing gassing and used to mix the stratified acid as you’ve stated).

Holden’s sulfation mode is very different to the sulfation modes that some smart float chargers perform by pulsing AC volts through a battery to remove the sulfation deposits and thus restore a partly dead battery.

Typical for different companies to use similar terms to define very different things

But thanks for clearing up that the Holden battery is sealed and can’t be topped up even though the battery is periodically gassed and some fluid loss may occur since Holden has provided a vent tube to get rid of the excess pressure the gassing causes.

Will you blame Holden for sealing the battery? The battery manufacturer would design and make the battery for the automotive manufacturer.

My VE was still on the original battery after 6 years. Two times it was flat in the time I had the car but I put it down to one of the modules not turning off.

My first VF was sold after 4 years still with original battery. both car unable to add fluid and never really looked at the battery in the rear only to make sure they were not leaking. I saw better than the old type battery you need to top up.

 

[HarryHoudini]

Got me thinking and tested my older car this morning.
My SV6 is 12.2 V in the morning before start up. Jan 2014 build and no errors (so far).
Display shows 14.9 V continuously whilst driving which gives me some concern.

My 2012 VE is the same but can drop to 11.8/11.9 if not driven for a a Month or so.
Mine is also on 14.9 v continuously when driving,even on 4 hr+ trips.

I posted in the other thread,i fitted a new battery last year, it took about a week to settle in before all the 'check charging system' etc warnings disappeared and the centre LCD screen stopped turning off.