6L80 (V8 Trans) experiences after power flush?

[vr304]

That's good to hear - both that review I quoted plus your experience, gives me faith. I have been using Lucas Power Steering leak Fix for years and with good results also. Apparently it acts to swell up the rubber/soft seals inside, so reducing the leak past them.

The transmission stuff works in much the same way mate, I’ve also used the power steering stop leak too and it definitely works

 

[Dart77]

2 man job preferably

The best way to flush is do your filter service, refill with fresh fluid, then just disconnect the return line after the cooler and run a line to an oil tray

One person starts the car and puts it in drive, the other makes sure the fluid actually goes into the drain pan, and also tells the one in the car to put it in park and shut the car down when the pan has about 2 litres in it, refill the trans, then rinse and repeat until you have flushed all of the old fluid out

You'll need at least enough fluid to do a dry fill, plus a litre or 2 in reserve for top ups

Time to do the whole job is around 1 beer for the one actually working outside, and 2 or 3 for the lazy bum sitting in the car starting it up and putting it in drive 5 or 6 times

Thanks for that - in my younger days I would have tackled that, have done similar things on other cars.

But these days, don't have anyone reliable to assist - plus, I'd be reluctant to start the car up on chinese-made jack stands - and my driveway is not level either. PLUS, and the biggest point - is that with no dipstick, you have to add ATF through the filler underneath and even though I just bought a fluid filler / sucker with a compressed air fitting, it's a huge one and would be difficult to do it safely just up on low level stands.

Really need a hoist and some experience, (plus a reliable helper). I'm tempted to buy that dipstick from that Racing mob in the USA, which is on this forum. That would solve that headache of checking and refilling.

 

[Skylarking]

As I understand it, todays modern transmissions get killed by the torque converter clutch shitting itself resulting in metal on metal grinding occurring which then sends bits throughout the transmission pooch screwing everything else within. Flushing, not flushing, additives, no additives won’t change this fundamental failure mechanism. To correct this failure mode you need to fix the TC clutch design problems which requires a new TC and/or different programming to change the way the lock up function operates.

Another failure mode is related to poor maintenance which results in fluid degradation and slipping which accelerates fluid degradation and causes more slipping while creating a dark very burnt almond smelling fluid. Solution to that is more frequent servicing and a proper trans cooler before too much damage has been done to the clutches.

I believe there is also another failure mode where the plastic check valves become deformed but I’m not really sure if this is a 6L80 issue but fixing it may be something that sealing additives can help with though the correct fix is to rebuild the trans.

I don’t buy into the theory that clutch material floating in the old fluid is what keeps an old shitty trans working because if after a fluid change resulted in no forward movement (heavy clutch slip) the trans specialists would either put clutch particle additive in the new fluid (I’ve
never seen such additives) or return the old fluid back into the trans to keep you on the road and book YouIn for a trans rebuild at a more convenient time (never heard of that occurring).

I’ve only heard dealers talk of fluid changes resulting in no drive in these sealed for life transmissions as I suspect they (like the manufacturer) have an interest in you churning your car (and a failed trans through lack of service costs a bundle and is just the excuse some need to buy new again)…. I suspect there are elements of self interest with the manufacturers view of sealed for life transmissions and the removal of trans fluid dip sticks.

Really, I prefer the logic of a self service full flush. It’s just a pan drop and filter change before inspecting the crud in the pan, magnet and filter, putting in a new filter, cleaning and bolting the pan back on the trans and then topping up with new fluid. That’s a normal pan drop fluid replacement and leaves a lot of fluid within the TC and transmission passages and cooler (if fitted).

To then achieve the full flush you’d go further (like @Ginger Beer described) and disconnect the trans cooler line (that takes fluid back to the transmission pan) and extend it to a bucket using a clear tube. Then by running the engine, the internal trans fluid pump is used to suck up the new fluid within the pan, pump it through the transmission, on to the cooler and into the bucket. In essence you empty the quantity of old fluid in the pan into the bucket as you push the clean fluid into the rest of the trans. You don’t need to be in gear as the trans fluid pump is always working whenever the engine is turning. You really want to shut down the engine before the trans pump runs dry due to no more fluid being left in the pan (remember the return line is now emptying into the bucket). So keep an eye on the fluid volume coming out of the tube and don’t let the engine run until the hose in the bucket splutter air for ages. Then it’s just to top up the pan again and rinse and repeat the process until the fluid coming out into the bucket is fully clean. It will take some fluid but using the clear tube to extend the trans line into the bucket makes seeing when the fluid is clean much easier

On an unknown high mileage trans I may go further and drop the pan to again check the amount of crud in the pan and filter before again cleaning the pan and changing the filter (if needed). You’d hope and expect that there wouldn’t be much if an6 crud after the process.

The above process is a one day full flush self service task but can be done in steps over many weeks by simply doing multiple fluid changes each weekend but the task would be easier with a trans fluid dip stick so that’s an great update to do (and should have been a factory inclusion).

At the end of the day, if the trans is running ok with the current old fluid, I really doubt that the trans will have any issues after a full fluid change. And the transmission will last much longer with periodic service at a more frequent schedule than Holden recommends (I think it’s done at 150,000kms or 75,000kms on the severe schedule).

Unfortunately trans shops don’t do this as they provide scaled services. Cheap = just suck up the pan fluid using a vacuum sucker and shop air before filling up with clean fluid. More costly = actually drop the pan and change the filter. Most expensive = power flush.

As to power flush, I’m not too sure of how these machines actually work, how much pressure they put on the trans, whether the solenoids are controlled via diagnostics equipment during the flush process, etc. I think they revers flush which I’m not a fan of. I don’t think they offer a huge benefit (if any) over a full fluid flush using the trans pump to push the old fluid out (as long as the pump doesn’t run dry)…

Let us know how you go with it.

 

[Ginger Beer]

As I understand it, todays modern transmissions get killed by the torque converter clutch shitting itself resulting in metal on metal grinding occurring which then sends bits throughout the transmission pooch screwing everything else within. Flushing, not flushing, additives, no additives won’t change this fundamental failure mechanism. To correct this failure mode you need to fix the TC clutch design problems which requires a new TC and/or different programming to change the way the lock up function operates.

Another failure mode is related to poor maintenance which results in fluid degradation and slipping which accelerates fluid degradation and causes more slipping while creating a dark very burnt almond smelling fluid. Solution to that is more frequent servicing and a proper trans cooler before too much damage has been done to the clutches.

I believe there is also another failure mode where the plastic check valves become deformed but I’m not really sure if this is a 6L80 issue but fixing it may be something that sealing additives can help with though the correct fix is to rebuild the trans.

I don’t buy into the theory that clutch material floating in the old fluid is what keeps an old shitty trans working because if after a fluid change resulted in no forward movement (heavy clutch slip) the trans specialists would either put clutch particle additive in the new fluid (I’ve
never seen such additives) or return the old fluid back into the trans to keep you on the road and book YouIn for a trans rebuild at a more convenient time (never heard of that occurring).

I’ve only heard dealers talk of fluid changes resulting in no drive in these sealed for life transmissions as I suspect they (like the manufacturer) have an interest in you churning your car (and a failed trans through lack of service costs a bundle and is just the excuse some need to buy new again)…. I suspect there are elements of self interest with the manufacturers view of sealed for life transmissions and the removal of trans fluid dip sticks.

Really, I prefer the logic of a self service full flush. It’s just a pan drop and filter change before inspecting the crud in the pan, magnet and filter, putting in a new filter, cleaning and bolting the pan back on the trans and then topping up with new fluid. That’s a normal pan drop fluid replacement and leaves a lot of fluid within the TC and transmission passages and cooler (if fitted).

To then achieve the full flush you’d go further (like @Ginger Beer described) and disconnect the trans cooler line (that takes fluid back to the transmission pan) and extend it to a bucket using a clear tube. Then by running the engine, the internal trans fluid pump is used to suck up the new fluid within the pan, pump it through the transmission, on to the cooler and into the bucket. In essence you empty the quantity of old fluid in the pan into the bucket as you push the clean fluid into the rest of the trans. You don’t need to be in gear as the trans fluid pump is always working whenever the engine is turning. You really want to shut down the engine before the trans pump runs dry due to no more fluid being left in the pan (remember the return line is now emptying into the bucket). So keep an eye on the fluid volume coming out of the tube and don’t let the engine run until the hose in the bucket splutter air for ages. Then it’s just to top up the pan again and rinse and repeat the process until the fluid coming out into the bucket is fully clean. It will take some fluid but using the clear tube to extend the trans line into the bucket makes seeing when the fluid is clean much easier

On an unknown high mileage trans I may go further and drop the pan to again check the amount of crud in the pan and filter before again cleaning the pan and changing the filter (if needed). You’d hope and expect that there wouldn’t be much if an6 crud after the process.

The above process is a one day full flush self service task but can be done in steps over many weeks by simply doing multiple fluid changes each weekend but the task would be easier with a trans fluid dip stick so that’s an great update to do (and should have been a factory inclusion).

At the end of the day, if the trans is running ok with the current old fluid, I really doubt that the trans will have any issues after a full fluid change. And the transmission will last much longer with periodic service at a more frequent schedule than Holden recommends (I think it’s done at 150,000kms or 75,000kms on the severe schedule).

Unfortunately trans shops don’t do this as they provide scaled services. Cheap = just suck up the pan fluid using a vacuum sucker and shop air before filling up with clean fluid. More costly = actually drop the pan and change the filter. Most expensive = power flush.

As to power flush, I’m not too sure of how these machines actually work, how much pressure they put on the trans, whether the solenoids are controlled via diagnostics equipment during the flush process, etc. I think they revers flush which I’m not a fan of. I don’t think they offer a huge benefit (if any) over a full fluid flush using the trans pump to push the old fluid out (as long as the pump doesn’t run dry)…

Let us know how you go with it.

One point: I have had the put the trans in either reverse or drive to get the fluid flowing out into the pan

In saying that I've never done this to a modern (post 2010?) slush box

 

[Daniel Souza]

I had issues with my 6l80 around 120k km on my VF2 redline. No gear would engage. She was towed to the mechanic. The fluid was so,bad that blocked the filter. They replaced the filter and topped up the oil.
After 5K kms I dumped the oil and the fluid was really bad and full off glitter.
She suffered the typical 6l80 converter failure reported many times before.
The trans was rebuild and because I didn't rebuild straight away after the first issue, the bellhousing which is part of the pump had to be replaced. Extra 1000 bucks.
I would suggest doing trans service every 45k if you use the car the way it was intended.

 

[Anthony121]

I just had my auto serviced at about 113k kms. just a drain and filter replacement and about 6.5 liters of fluid replaced. The fluid colour wasn't too bad that came out of the transmission and my mechanic said probably a waste of time changing it.

 

[OldBomb]

The Mazda at 100k wasn't too bad. Bit dark & smelly, but not a lot of metal debris.

 

[Dart77]

I don’t buy into the theory that clutch material floating in the old fluid is what keeps an old shitty trans working because if after a fluid change resulted in no forward movement (heavy clutch slip) the trans specialists would either put clutch particle additive in the new fluid (I’ve
never seen such additives) or return the old fluid back into the trans to keep you on the road and book you in for a trans rebuild at a more convenient time (never heard of that occurring).

Hey mate, appreciate the comprehensive and very well written post. Some good observations and points that all adds to the knowledge base.

That quote above that I cut out, is what I was feeling myself but you have put it nicely into words

After considering everyone's opinions and also listening to various auto trans places takes on it, I went ahead with Ultra Tune doing the full machine flush on it. I dealt with the workshop manager (an experienced mechanic as well and not just a manager) who not only has personally owned a VE V8 auto but also worked at Holden for many years. I told him of my concerns - ie that it had never been serviced in it's life (as far as I was aware) of just over 200,000 km. And that the first service I had got, where I asked the guys to show me the pan/magnets before cleaning and the filter, which they cut open for me, showed the oil to be what you'd expect. Pretty bad and lots of build up of particles on the magnets.

I told him that I thought that doing three standard services (drop and clean pan and fill with hew oil) in a relatively short time frame would pretty well clean out the trans of any old fluid. He said that was a foolhardy idea (not in those words but I sensed that's what he meant) and was a lot of work and expense and still would not get rid of all the old fluid - and advised to just get the full flush, but without needing any other work or parts; that is, leaving the newly dropped and clean pan and filter on and just flushing through. Even that was $550, but it's a 2 hour job and does take a lot more fluid (synthetic) than a standard service, since ALL the fluid is replaced - valve body, TC and cooler and lines.

He said the the machine does not reverse flush extensively but uses it's own pump in combination with the own transmission's pump and that it's a complex procedure that can't really be explained in 5 minutes. I gather that the machine they use is a pretty expensive and digitally controlled piece of gear.

The manager personally looked at the flushed oil and test drove it afterwards and was happy with the results, as I am . It behaves almost perfectly, as it did before, but now with the added good feeling of knowing it has all new fresh ATF inside.

But this doesn't mean I recommend it to everyone regardless of situation, as everyone should do what I did and be wary about just one opinion and listen to lots of ideas and consider their own trans and situation individually. Unless you have the money to just get a rebuild without worrying about the time and expense.

At the end of the day, if the trans is running ok with the current old fluid, I really doubt that the trans will have any issues after a full fluid change. And the transmission will last much longer with periodic service at a more frequent schedule than Holden recommends (I think it’s done at 150,000kms or 75,000kms on the severe schedule).

Unfortunately trans shops don’t do this as they provide scaled services. Cheap = just suck up the pan fluid using a vacuum sucker and shop air before filling up with clean fluid. More costly = actually drop the pan and change the filter. Most expensive = power flush.

Top paragraph - totally agree.

Second paragraph - I have never heard of shops with any degree of integrity doing the cheap method. Unless they have a watertight arrangement with the customer that any work they do isn't legally worthy. As far as I can see, doing that cheap method is asking for problems. Old oil, its colour and pan debris can tell a heap about the trans and not doing an inspection but just sucking out and putting in new oil is just half a job. But saying that, I'm sure there's places that will do it, if it means a bit of cash flow.

 

[Dart77]

I just had my auto serviced at about 113k kms. just a drain and filter replacement and about 6.5 liters of fluid replaced. The fluid colour wasn't too bad that came out of the transmission and my mechanic said probably a waste of time changing it.

Just my opinion, but I'd be getting another mechanic. Does he have any idea of the intricacies and multiple systems (electronic / mechanical / hydraulic) involved inside the modern auto? There are tightly packed gears inside, as well as clutches, which act against each other and surface wear occurs. In any new mechanical device where this happens, there will always be a little more wear occurring from new, until everything beds in and works more harmoniously.

One way to add to the long life of a trans is to do frequent services and the first service should be done far sooner than recommended, because the first oil will likely have a higher concentration of microscopic debris from the initial bed-in. As Skylarking said, there is quite obviously some vested interests between manufacturers and their dealers in selling machines recommending extended or no, servicing required. The auto trans is a complicated piece of gear with as I said, multiple systems working together in a confined space and has to do A LOT of work and do it constantly. Its blood, the ATF, needs to be in top shape for this to happen for many years without any issues. And of course with not too much abuse from the owner.

Now, manufacturers have made it much more difficult for owners and enthusiasts to service their own cars and so have created a bigger industry for servicings. Go back to the 60', 70s and 80s where even electronic ignition and air condituioning were fairly rare and there was only the local garage or mechanical repair shop that did the relatively simple things required and not the multiple franchised service centres of today with the necessary diagnostics and specialist people for air con, fuel injection, electric braking and steering systems, All wheel drive and computer controlled everything.

Rant over.

 

[hjtrbo]

For what it's worth, the torque converter is the number 1 source of 6L80 failure. It'll generally take out the pump along with it which is built into the bell housing.

For the ultimate in good feelings I would be visiting a tune shop to get the slip disabled at a minimum; and optionally disabling lock up in gears 1 through 4.