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6L80 (V8 Trans) experiences after power flush?

Dart77

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The torque converter has the lock up clutch inside. (Some automatic transmissions have the lock up clutch pack within the trans itself). Apparently what can happen is that the clutch pack within the torque converter can shed material (I read somewhere that water in the transmission fluid exacerbates this?) and this material then damages the rest of the transmission.
To answer this quote and also the rest of the fantastic info just given in the last day or so - very happy with all this info and will watch those YT vids soon too, thnks Skylark.

From quote: You mention that water in the fluid can accelerate the clutch breakdown - well this is probably correct IF auto clutches are made the way they were in the old days - where the bonding substance on the clutches is water based! It was always well known amongst mechanics that moisture in the ATF will cause the trans to fail faster simply due to that fact. Hence the need to do regular servicings / oil changes.

It's hard to believe that they would still use a water based bonding material in such a critical application like this though - so will be interested to hear from trans builders on this.

Then again, they have been successfully using water based paints for many years - which last 20 years in the weather.
 

Dart77

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As I’ve said elsewhere previously, if manufacturers and government were serious about global warming they would be aiming for (and governments regulating for) maximum service life instead of the “everything is disposable” shitfuckery we have now. Every piece of useless disposable shite not made is carbon emissions that is not created.
Exactly! Totally agree. It's an insane way to think - and don't forget, almost exclusively it is environmental issues that takes a distant second place to wealth creation and politics.
 

Dart77

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I‘m not disagreeing with anything you have posted, but I do suspect that manufacturers use an unwritten acceptable life for a car. My suspicion is that it is 100,000 miles (or 160,000 km) and it’s based upon the idea of a car doing about 10,000 miles per year (16,000 km/year). The ’acceptable life’ is then about 10 years. I also suspect that cars would be designed to meet this 10-year life expectation. As an engineer, and knowing that things can vary considerably (such as how cars are used), I would guess that the calculations would be done on having parts last 20 years (200,000 miles, 320,000 km) to ensure that a large percentage make it to 160,000 km essentially trouble free.

So, if a clutch in a torque converter (which is totally unable to be serviced or inspected) lasts at least 160,000 km (and maybe even go to 320,000 km) the manufacturer can probably claim that it lasted the life of the car.

Also, if one takes a 10 year old car in for repairs, it’s not uncommon to hear the phrase ‘What do you expect? It’s a 10 year old car!’
All these points are just nicely written bits of my own long held views. I've always known that manufacturers build into their vehicles a "useable life". They don't want their cars lasting too long - they need people to keep buying their new models. Millions of other products are built like this too - it's a whole science within (or probably more likely separate from) their engineering departments to create a product that fails at a certain point in it's life. But not appear to do it too obviously. To hide a programmed wear item away in the torque converter is a sly but effective way of doing just that.

But nobody told Westinghouse that in the 1970s and early 80s. I have both a Westinghouse fridge and stove, built in the 70s and 80s respectively. Neither will die, so I keep using them and respect the engineering of the day. The fridge in particular, which was the top model at the time has a heap of different features and options - and all still working. In fact it works so well that I never have it above setting 2 (out of 6).
 

Ginger Beer

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Water in the trans fluid also plays havoc with the internal soft metal parts

How and why I don't know, I was told this by a trans shop

I assume some black magic oxidation something or other

Also, does the commodores with 6L80e transmissions have a external oil cooler standard?
 

Dart77

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Realistically they could last a lot longer than that if components/assemblies were designed for maximum service life and manufacturers were honest about service requirements rather than their “sealed for life” crap.
No doubt Holden, as with almost every mass produced car manufacturer, is relying on the general unawareness and stupid blind trust of the majority of their buyers. Built up over generations of trust on their previous much simpler and reliable vehicles.

Take the 15 year owner of this VE I recently bought. Farmed out everything to service centres and dealerships. Didn't even know it didn't have a trans dipstick - even though he said he regularly checked the engine oil. Didn't even know if it had an LSD or not (it's an SSV) and didn't know the diff ratio. He is a telecommunications technician but didn't know how to change the battery in the key fob. These are the sort of people that car manufacturers would prefer having as customers. All trust and no questions.
 

07GTS

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Water in the trans fluid also plays havoc with the internal soft metal parts

How and why I don't know, I was told this by a trans shop

I assume some black magic oxidation something or other

Also, does the commodores with 6L80e transmissions have a external oil cooler standard?
makes u wonder how much water gets in as every time it heats up it will make condensation same as the engine just not as much, they still have the cooler lines to the radiator same as previous
 

chrisp

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Also, does the commodores with 6L80e transmissions have a external oil cooler standard?

They have the standard in radiator fluid cooler (water to oil cooler). The extra air-to-oil cooler wasn’t standard or offered as an accessory as far as I’m aware. But I have heard that the police spec cars had them fitted.
 

chrisp

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All these points are just nicely written bits of my own long held views. I've always known that manufacturers build into their vehicles a "useable life". They don't want their cars lasting too long - they need people to keep buying their new models. Millions of other products are built like this too - it's a whole science within (or probably more likely separate from) their engineering departments to create a product that fails at a certain point in it's life. But not appear to do it too obviously. To hide a programmed wear item away in the torque converter is a sly but effective way of doing just that.

But nobody told Westinghouse that in the 1970s and early 80s. I have both a Westinghouse fridge and stove, built in the 70s and 80s respectively. Neither will die, so I keep using them and respect the engineering of the day. The fridge in particular, which was the top model at the time has a heap of different features and options - and all still working. In fact it works so well that I never have it above setting 2 (out of 6).

I don’t think that there is planned obsolescence as such, or rather if there is, it’s a byproduct of meeting a market price. So the motivation is to be competitive in the new product market.

For example, some of the all-wheel-drive cars use clutch packs and electronics to distribute the torque rather than gearboxes or transfer cases. There are two advantages… the electronics makes it work better (from a driver’s perspective) and it is cheaper to make and lower weight (than the traditional gear arrangement). So this gives the manufacturer a marketing advantage (our vehicle with superior driving performance is available cheaper). The trade off is that clutch packs will wear out (so is less reliable than the geared arrangement).

So, how does the manufacturer deal with the clutch-pack arrangement and determine how long it will last. Quite easily. All they need to do is run a few test vehicles and carefully weigh the clutch packs before and after a test run. They can then calculate the amount of material worn off the clutch pack per kilometre and then calculate how long they’ll last. My guess if is the calculated life is 160,000 or more kilometres, then it is good to go.

So the NVH reason for allowing the torque converter to slip would have been calculate and the optimum point between acceptable life and acceptable performance (low NVH) would have been calculated.

In the end, manufacturers are selling their cars to ‘new car buyers’. These buyers mostly buy new cars regularly so are only looking for reliable motoring for the length of their ownership (or the length of their lease) - say, 3 to 5 years - plus enough remaining reliability to preserve a reasonable residual value. The people who really care about longer term reliability are the secondhand car buyers, but they are essentially picking over the bones of the new car market (and are not a driving influence on the new car market or new car design parameters).



As an aside, be careful of old fridges. Yes, they are incredibly reliable and will probably outlive cockroaches, but they are also very inefficient. A few years ago I replaced a 25 year-old Hoover fridge as I remodelled our kitchen. The old fridge was still working perfectly (and had only broke down once - a defrost timer failed). Before replacing it, I decided to do some energy measurements on it. I don’t have the hard numbers at hand, but I worked out that the new fridge (costing about $2,000) would pay for itself after about three years - just in the energy savings (or running costs) between the old and new fridge.

I usually caution people against putting the out fridge in the shed (or wherever). If they really need another fridge, then go out and buy a new one rather than use the old one as a ‘drinks fridge’.
 

07GTS

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this ''slip'' as far as i see it is not a constant but rather a transient allowance to keep the shock out of the drivetrain, its not sitting at a cruise just slipping 50rpm constantly otherwise the engine would have to compensate for it with throttle input and prob create a surging affect and it would also kill economy, the factory clutch is also designed for slip and these arnt dry clutches like manual they are a wet clutch so slip is different and wear is different
 

OldBomb

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I'd say most people keep a new car 10 years or 100,000kms, whichever comes first. That's when the first major service s due & people being the stingy bastards they are, will try to flog it off before then.
A well designed transmission that's regularly serviced should last over 300,000 kms, but as you say, modern car manufacturers don't necessarily want their vehicles to be kept that long. This is where the Japanese are killing it. Toyotas, Hondas, Suzukis, Mazdas, Pajero's, Pathfinders etc are sought after cars because they seem to last forever.
 
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